5 ms·

Isn't it always the same story? FBI targets some mentally unstable, near mentally challenged dude, feeds him some propaganda, gives him ideas and encourages him

Isn't it always the same story? FBI targets some mentally unstable, near mentally challenged dude, feeds him some propaganda, gives him ideas and encourages him to do some terrorist stuff, then they arrest him claiming huge victory? The guy literally wouldn't be able to do any of that stuff if it wasn't for undercover agents pushing him to do it. "he ordered a plastic explosive composition known as C-4 and other explosives from the undercover employee" etc.

leoh 2y ago
I think it may be more complicated than this. They may have had a lot of evidence that the would-be perpetrator was involved in other serious hate crimes and they decided to ramp up charges by doing this. That said, it’s not necessarily clean and yes, it may merely be a case of entrapment.
- Rodeoclash 2y ago
  Entrapment is specifically inducing a person to commit a crime they wouldn't normally commit, e.g. by coercing them to do it. Without knowing any details about this case, this could be true, however it sounds like he was quite willing to go ahead with the purchase of the C4 to destroy the infrastructure.
MaxikCZ 2y ago
Idk. If an undercover FBI agent can convince you to order C4 with intent to blow up infrastructure, who says someone else couldnt. Id rather it be an agent locking him up, than real seller, while an agent dont notice.
- pxeger1 2y ago
  But then the label "for attempting to destroy ..." is misleading, because a priori all they’ve really proven is he is susceptible to being convinced to attempt to destroy it. It seems to me your argument can be extended to justify any form of entrapment: "if an undercover police officer can convince you to buy a gun with the intent to rob someone at gunpoint, who says someone else couldn’t?"
  - cma 2y ago
    They said he wanted to shoot it but decided that wouldn't do enough damage.
  - MaxikCZ 2y ago
    Lets switch "attempting to destroy" for "attenpting to murder". If an undercover cop sells you a gun knowing you want to use it to murder your spouse, you should definetly be charged with both, illegal purchase of firearm and intent to murder, regardless whether you actually to managed to murder someone first. Does it matter that all someone (be it undercover cop or criminal) proved was you are able to be convinced to murder your spouse AND buy a gun? In my books you either charge the person at that point (for intent to murder), or it will be too late. Same applies to "suspectible to destroy". They proven their intent AND purchased C4... Shall we give them benefit of the doubt until it actually goes boom?
- octopoc 2y ago
  Let’s say, for sake of argument, that only 10% of crimes committed due to entrapment would have been committed without entrapment. Are you still okay with that outcome? At what percentage does entrapment become a good thing? 50%? We can use statistics and models to estimate this I think, it would just be a lot of work.
  - MaxikCZ 2y ago
    I think you shouldnt get charged for crimes you didnt commit, but it shouldnt matter whether an undercover cop or criminal enabled you to achieve your criminal goal. I am sure many things can be prosecuted before they even happen (like intent to murder as oposed to murder itself), and those should apply regardless of who talks you into intending to carry out the crime
- dpc_01234 2y ago
  Encouraging someone to commit a crime seems quite immoral to me. Somehow the government always find a way to justify their immoral behavior, and I don't buy it.
0dayz 2y ago
So this in your opinion is a more rational explanation than: the man believes in white supremacy which has movements advocating accelerationism?
- h2odragon 2y ago
  The FBI has a long, documented history of manufacturing its headline terrorism cases from whole cloth. Not just the recent cases like the Bundy bullshit; all the way back before the Black Panthers. occam's razor and a complete lack of actual white supremacists on the ground suggests this is another example of same.
rightbyte 2y ago
It might be some sort of bias that make it look like that. I.e. people in 'fringe movements' just calls the police like a normal person when exposed to a way to fringe plan from a way too nutty sympathizer. It seems that the FBI might have been tipped off. "Beginning in June 2024, Philippi told a confidential human source (CHS) about his desire to commit a mass shooting at a YMCA facility"
pushupentry1219 2y ago
This excuse always always comes up when the perpetrator is a white supremacist and pretty much never when they are any other variety of terrorist.
- palmfacehn 2y ago
  https://www.google.com/search?q=fbi+entrapped+muslim+teenager https://www.google.com/search?q=fbi+entrapped+muslim+teenage... Cursory research will produce the following links: https://theintercept.com/2023/06/15/fbi-undercover-isis-teenager-terrorist/ https://theintercept.com/2023/06/15/fbi-undercover-isis-teen... >Critics say the FBI is running a sting operation across America, targeting – to a large extent – the Muslim community by luring people into fake terror plots. https://www.cair.com/blog/fbi-entrapment-harms-vulnerable-muslims/ https://www.cair.com/blog/fbi-entrapment-harms-vulnerable-mu... >Every day was the same for Khalil Abu Rayyan, 21, a depressed pizza delivery man from Dearborn Heights, Michigan. Working for a pizzeria in Detroit, he’d drive late nights on desolate inner city streets... https://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/29/politics/aby-rayyan-fbi-terror-sting-pizza-man/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/29/politics/aby-rayyan-fbi-t... >“We are tremendously pleased that our clients are on their way home -- even if it’s fourteen years too late,” said Amith R. Gupta, part of a group of lawyers representing Payen and the Willamses, who are not related. Gupta in his statement described the three as destitute men “entrapped for their race, religion, and working-class backgrounds by a government looking to spread fear of Muslims and justify bloated budgets.” https://apnews.com/article/newburgh-four-terrorism-sting-fbi-compassionate-release-62065491755cf80766aaab46410cdeff https://apnews.com/article/newburgh-four-terrorism-sting-fbi...
  - pushupentry1219 2y ago
    This is my point. This exact thing happens for these non-white terrorists, but the excuse of FBI coercion does not come up in public opinion (e.g. comments here, around the web) as a valid excuse for the perp's actions. The discussion is had but it's never considered as a _valid_ excuse unless they are white.
    - 2y ago
ttyprintk 2y ago
Let’s say FBI played matchmaker between two guys. One with C-4 and another with intent. Almost at the end, they flip one of the guys, which explains the multiple CHS in this story. They arrest the more-convictable one. How can you tell this scenario apart from an Oklahoma City?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

leoh 2y ago

I think it may be more complicated than this. They may have had a lot of evidence that the would-be perpetrator was involved in other serious hate crimes and they decided to ramp up charges by doing this. That said, it’s not necessarily clean and yes, it may merely be a case of entrapment.

Rodeoclash 2y ago
Entrapment is specifically inducing a person to commit a crime they wouldn't normally commit, e.g. by coercing them to do it. Without knowing any details about this case, this could be true, however it sounds like he was quite willing to go ahead with the purchase of the C4 to destroy the infrastructure.

MaxikCZ 2y ago

Idk. If an undercover FBI agent can convince you to order C4 with intent to blow up infrastructure, who says someone else couldnt. Id rather it be an agent locking him up, than real seller, while an agent dont notice.

pxeger1 2y ago
But then the label "for attempting to destroy ..." is misleading, because a priori all they’ve really proven is he is susceptible to being convinced to attempt to destroy it. It seems to me your argument can be extended to justify any form of entrapment: "if an undercover police officer can convince you to buy a gun with the intent to rob someone at gunpoint, who says someone else couldn’t?"
- cma 2y ago
  They said he wanted to shoot it but decided that wouldn't do enough damage.
- MaxikCZ 2y ago
  Lets switch "attempting to destroy" for "attenpting to murder". If an undercover cop sells you a gun knowing you want to use it to murder your spouse, you should definetly be charged with both, illegal purchase of firearm and intent to murder, regardless whether you actually to managed to murder someone first. Does it matter that all someone (be it undercover cop or criminal) proved was you are able to be convinced to murder your spouse AND buy a gun? In my books you either charge the person at that point (for intent to murder), or it will be too late. Same applies to "suspectible to destroy". They proven their intent AND purchased C4... Shall we give them benefit of the doubt until it actually goes boom?
octopoc 2y ago
Let’s say, for sake of argument, that only 10% of crimes committed due to entrapment would have been committed without entrapment. Are you still okay with that outcome? At what percentage does entrapment become a good thing? 50%? We can use statistics and models to estimate this I think, it would just be a lot of work.
- MaxikCZ 2y ago
  I think you shouldnt get charged for crimes you didnt commit, but it shouldnt matter whether an undercover cop or criminal enabled you to achieve your criminal goal. I am sure many things can be prosecuted before they even happen (like intent to murder as oposed to murder itself), and those should apply regardless of who talks you into intending to carry out the crime
dpc_01234 2y ago
Encouraging someone to commit a crime seems quite immoral to me. Somehow the government always find a way to justify their immoral behavior, and I don't buy it.

0dayz 2y ago

So this in your opinion is a more rational explanation than: the man believes in white supremacy which has movements advocating accelerationism?

h2odragon 2y ago
The FBI has a long, documented history of manufacturing its headline terrorism cases from whole cloth. Not just the recent cases like the Bundy bullshit; all the way back before the Black Panthers. occam's razor and a complete lack of actual white supremacists on the ground suggests this is another example of same.

rightbyte 2y ago

It might be some sort of bias that make it look like that. I.e. people in 'fringe movements' just calls the police like a normal person when exposed to a way to fringe plan from a way too nutty sympathizer. It seems that the FBI might have been tipped off. "Beginning in June 2024, Philippi told a confidential human source (CHS) about his desire to commit a mass shooting at a YMCA facility"

pushupentry1219 2y ago

This excuse always always comes up when the perpetrator is a white supremacist and pretty much never when they are any other variety of terrorist.

palmfacehn 2y ago
https://www.google.com/search?q=fbi+entrapped+muslim+teenager https://www.google.com/search?q=fbi+entrapped+muslim+teenage... Cursory research will produce the following links: https://theintercept.com/2023/06/15/fbi-undercover-isis-teenager-terrorist/ https://theintercept.com/2023/06/15/fbi-undercover-isis-teen... >Critics say the FBI is running a sting operation across America, targeting – to a large extent – the Muslim community by luring people into fake terror plots. https://www.cair.com/blog/fbi-entrapment-harms-vulnerable-muslims/ https://www.cair.com/blog/fbi-entrapment-harms-vulnerable-mu... >Every day was the same for Khalil Abu Rayyan, 21, a depressed pizza delivery man from Dearborn Heights, Michigan. Working for a pizzeria in Detroit, he’d drive late nights on desolate inner city streets... https://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/29/politics/aby-rayyan-fbi-terror-sting-pizza-man/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/29/politics/aby-rayyan-fbi-t... >“We are tremendously pleased that our clients are on their way home -- even if it’s fourteen years too late,” said Amith R. Gupta, part of a group of lawyers representing Payen and the Willamses, who are not related. Gupta in his statement described the three as destitute men “entrapped for their race, religion, and working-class backgrounds by a government looking to spread fear of Muslims and justify bloated budgets.” https://apnews.com/article/newburgh-four-terrorism-sting-fbi-compassionate-release-62065491755cf80766aaab46410cdeff https://apnews.com/article/newburgh-four-terrorism-sting-fbi...
- pushupentry1219 2y ago
  This is my point. This exact thing happens for these non-white terrorists, but the excuse of FBI coercion does not come up in public opinion (e.g. comments here, around the web) as a valid excuse for the perp's actions. The discussion is had but it's never considered as a _valid_ excuse unless they are white.
  - 2y ago

ttyprintk 2y ago

Let’s say FBI played matchmaker between two guys. One with C-4 and another with intent. Almost at the end, they flip one of the guys, which explains the multiple CHS in this story. They arrest the more-convictable one. How can you tell this scenario apart from an Oklahoma City?

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]