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Russia has things North Korea and Iran want. They are willing to send troops into a senseless conflict because they have everything to gain from it in the form

Russia has things North Korea and Iran want. They are willing to send troops into a senseless conflict because they have everything to gain from it in the form of nuclear/ICBM technology and Soviet-era materiel. The United States stands to lose a lot more by formally entering this conflict. NATO is still in effect, but given that Ukraine isn't yet a member there is no incentive to deploy NATO forces in Ukraine. It remains a wiser use of everyone's resources to use NATO training resources and inventories before we reach the point where boots-on-the-ground deployment is even an option.

skhunted 2y ago
The United States stands to lose a lot more by formally entering this conflict. I don’t believe this is correct. If Europe and the U.S. won’t defend Ukraine then what makes people think they’ll defend Taiwan? The U.S. is showing that it is not a reliable guarantor of security. Europe looks helpless and weak. Suppose tomorrow it was announced that China has brokered a peace deal between Ukraine and Russia and that they will send peacekeepers to ensure compliance. Imagine the shitshow that would follow. As the war drags on and as Ukraine’s ability to fight wanes such a scenario becomes more likely.
- talldayo 2y ago
  > Suppose tomorrow it was announced that China has brokered a peace deal between Ukraine and Russia and that they will send peacekeepers to ensure compliance. I literally do not think China has the international clout to make that happen. China is deep in kahoots with Russia, and any deal brokered by them is no more likely to hold than the previous treaties. Ukraine's ultimate goal is to have the same security that other NATO countries enjoy, and that's not something China has the authority to offer them in the first place. The US isn't involved in Ukraine like they are in Taiwan. If Ukraine becomes occupied territory, it will be a tragedy but the United States will be okay. If Taiwan is occupied, the entire concept of American economic leadership will be inherently jeopardized and free trade in the Taiwan Strait will probably cease. This would also offer a deeply threatening staging location for attacks on other allies a-la Japan and Australia, whereas the territory of Ukraine is arguably less strategically valuable than Crimea or Georgia, let alone Taiwan. I guess only time will tell.
kstenerud 2y ago
Yup, and this is exactly what happened in the lead-up to the second world war. Britain, France, and America did the "speak words and send arms" thing to stop Germany in the "most prudent fashion", when a quick punch to the nose would have stopped them while they were still unsteady on their military feet. No one wants to say it, but it's cowardice, and all it does is encourage the bullies of the world, and tells everyone else that you're on your own so you might as well only look out for number one. Russia knows this, which is why they stirred up Hamas, Iran, and NK, and are actively interfering with Georgian and Moldovan elections. I mean, if nobody's going to stop you, why would you not do this to weaken and confuse your rival?
- protomolecule 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - kstenerud 2y ago
    The USSR wasn't unsteady on their military feet (well, except for right after stomping Berlin, but so were the other allies at the time).
    - protomolecule 2y ago
      [flagged]
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > this is exactly what happened in the lead-up to the second world war. Britain, France, and America did the "speak words and send arms" thing to stop Germany >> Who would've attacked the USSR then? Not what they said.
    - protomolecule 2y ago
      [flagged]
ChumpGPT 2y ago
Ukraine has done more for NATO than any other NATO Nation. No one is asking for any Western country to fight but, to at least relieve the strain of logistics, training, medical help, and shoot down missiles to save civilians. They were more than happy to do it for Israel and it is not a NATO nation.

skhunted 2y ago

The United States stands to lose a lot more by formally entering this conflict. I don’t believe this is correct. If Europe and the U.S. won’t defend Ukraine then what makes people think they’ll defend Taiwan? The U.S. is showing that it is not a reliable guarantor of security. Europe looks helpless and weak. Suppose tomorrow it was announced that China has brokered a peace deal between Ukraine and Russia and that they will send peacekeepers to ensure compliance. Imagine the shitshow that would follow. As the war drags on and as Ukraine’s ability to fight wanes such a scenario becomes more likely.

talldayo 2y ago
> Suppose tomorrow it was announced that China has brokered a peace deal between Ukraine and Russia and that they will send peacekeepers to ensure compliance. I literally do not think China has the international clout to make that happen. China is deep in kahoots with Russia, and any deal brokered by them is no more likely to hold than the previous treaties. Ukraine's ultimate goal is to have the same security that other NATO countries enjoy, and that's not something China has the authority to offer them in the first place. The US isn't involved in Ukraine like they are in Taiwan. If Ukraine becomes occupied territory, it will be a tragedy but the United States will be okay. If Taiwan is occupied, the entire concept of American economic leadership will be inherently jeopardized and free trade in the Taiwan Strait will probably cease. This would also offer a deeply threatening staging location for attacks on other allies a-la Japan and Australia, whereas the territory of Ukraine is arguably less strategically valuable than Crimea or Georgia, let alone Taiwan. I guess only time will tell.

kstenerud 2y ago

Yup, and this is exactly what happened in the lead-up to the second world war. Britain, France, and America did the "speak words and send arms" thing to stop Germany in the "most prudent fashion", when a quick punch to the nose would have stopped them while they were still unsteady on their military feet. No one wants to say it, but it's cowardice, and all it does is encourage the bullies of the world, and tells everyone else that you're on your own so you might as well only look out for number one. Russia knows this, which is why they stirred up Hamas, Iran, and NK, and are actively interfering with Georgian and Moldovan elections. I mean, if nobody's going to stop you, why would you not do this to weaken and confuse your rival?

protomolecule 2y ago
[flagged]
- kstenerud 2y ago
  The USSR wasn't unsteady on their military feet (well, except for right after stomping Berlin, but so were the other allies at the time).
  - protomolecule 2y ago
    [flagged]
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > this is exactly what happened in the lead-up to the second world war. Britain, France, and America did the "speak words and send arms" thing to stop Germany >> Who would've attacked the USSR then? Not what they said.
  - protomolecule 2y ago
    [flagged]

ChumpGPT 2y ago

Ukraine has done more for NATO than any other NATO Nation. No one is asking for any Western country to fight but, to at least relieve the strain of logistics, training, medical help, and shoot down missiles to save civilians. They were more than happy to do it for Israel and it is not a NATO nation.