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I feel the same way about Linus with Linux. I know people say to separate the art from the artist, but when you are openly abusive to your users for decades on

I feel the same way about Linus with Linux. I know people say to separate the art from the artist, but when you are openly abusive to your users for decades on end, with barely any remorse, and continue to do so today, it just does not make me want to use your product.

trissi1996 2y ago
When was linus/Linux ever "openly abusive" to users ? He can get pretty heated in arguments on the LKML for sure, but those are arguments between devs, and usually for the benefit of the user. I still think this way of working out disagreements sucks, but as a user it does not really affect me at all. And other OS'es abuse their users on a whole other level and I'm quite sore that some of apples/microsofts middle managers can also be quite abusive to their devs behind closed doors, with linux it's just all in the open...
peppertree 2y ago
Do you have any examples of Linus being abusive? I always thought he was a straight shooter but wasn’t aware he was being abusive to users.
- 29athrowaway 2y ago
  https://lwn.net/Articles/649157/ https://lwn.net/Articles/649157/ > We don't merge kernel code just because user space was written by a retarded monkey on crack - Linus Torvalds Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYWzMvlj2RQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYWzMvlj2RQ
  - braiamp 2y ago
    First, User space != users. Second, he's berating that kernel maintainer saying that even if user space does something absurd, the kernel accommodates such absurdity. The user space program being bad, doesn't give the kernel any reason to break it intentionally.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - jchw 2y ago
    Actually, these are pretty bad examples. Both of those fits of anger ultimately come down to caring about the users, but especially the NVIDIA one. I eventually gave up and switched to AMD graphics, but from 2004 to at least around 2016 I was running NVIDIA graphics on Linux and their increasing apathy towards Linux desktop users and Linux in general was clear. It just now is getting better, long after Torvalds complained about it, and even then it'll be a long time before things are stable and in good shape for most users. (e.g. only RTX 20xx cards are covered by the new "open" drivers, for example.)
  - Brian_K_White 2y ago
    Did you actually read/watch/listen to any of these? These are examples of a committed champion and friend of users defending their interests.
- ranger_danger 2y ago
  https://old.reddit.com/r/linusrants/ https://old.reddit.com/r/linusrants/ We might disagree on the definition of abusive though.
jchw 2y ago
On the contrary, I really think Linus is a shining example of caring about the users. He often seems to be one of the top advocates of the "never break userspace" mentality, a position I respect. I will grant you that he does sometimes say things on LKML that are inflammatory or at least angry (less so these days to be sure) but personally I prefer the unfiltered honesty. I believe most humans can admit that they've felt like Linus does in his rants at times. People have criticized the way that he speaks, but I believe his anger is very often because he cares about the users.
cirrus3 2y ago
At least Linus didn't murder his wife.
- mech422 2y ago
  Isn't she a martial arts champion? I don't think she'd murder easy... :-P

trissi1996 2y ago

When was linus/Linux ever "openly abusive" to users ? He can get pretty heated in arguments on the LKML for sure, but those are arguments between devs, and usually for the benefit of the user. I still think this way of working out disagreements sucks, but as a user it does not really affect me at all. And other OS'es abuse their users on a whole other level and I'm quite sore that some of apples/microsofts middle managers can also be quite abusive to their devs behind closed doors, with linux it's just all in the open...

peppertree 2y ago

Do you have any examples of Linus being abusive? I always thought he was a straight shooter but wasn’t aware he was being abusive to users.

29athrowaway 2y ago
https://lwn.net/Articles/649157/ https://lwn.net/Articles/649157/ > We don't merge kernel code just because user space was written by a retarded monkey on crack - Linus Torvalds Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYWzMvlj2RQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYWzMvlj2RQ
- braiamp 2y ago
  First, User space != users. Second, he's berating that kernel maintainer saying that even if user space does something absurd, the kernel accommodates such absurdity. The user space program being bad, doesn't give the kernel any reason to break it intentionally.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- jchw 2y ago
  Actually, these are pretty bad examples. Both of those fits of anger ultimately come down to caring about the users, but especially the NVIDIA one. I eventually gave up and switched to AMD graphics, but from 2004 to at least around 2016 I was running NVIDIA graphics on Linux and their increasing apathy towards Linux desktop users and Linux in general was clear. It just now is getting better, long after Torvalds complained about it, and even then it'll be a long time before things are stable and in good shape for most users. (e.g. only RTX 20xx cards are covered by the new "open" drivers, for example.)
- Brian_K_White 2y ago
  Did you actually read/watch/listen to any of these? These are examples of a committed champion and friend of users defending their interests.
ranger_danger 2y ago
https://old.reddit.com/r/linusrants/ https://old.reddit.com/r/linusrants/ We might disagree on the definition of abusive though.

jchw 2y ago

On the contrary, I really think Linus is a shining example of caring about the users. He often seems to be one of the top advocates of the "never break userspace" mentality, a position I respect. I will grant you that he does sometimes say things on LKML that are inflammatory or at least angry (less so these days to be sure) but personally I prefer the unfiltered honesty. I believe most humans can admit that they've felt like Linus does in his rants at times. People have criticized the way that he speaks, but I believe his anger is very often because he cares about the users.

cirrus3 2y ago

At least Linus didn't murder his wife.

mech422 2y ago
Isn't she a martial arts champion? I don't think she'd murder easy... :-P