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> between the US constitution, US federal laws, State constitution, State laws, and county laws there are often strict limits to what can be done that HOAs are

> between the US constitution, US federal laws, State constitution, State laws, and county laws there are often strict limits to what can be done that HOAs are not effected (sic) by HOAs cannot enforce rules that conflict with State or Federal law or the Constitution.

sokoloff 2y ago
Are you sure [in the context of GP's claim]? The Federal government could not pass a law prohibiting me from painting my front door purple (that would be an infringement on my 1A rights). As I understand it, an HOA can enforce such a prohibition as a private entity (and use the courts to back them, ultimately).
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > Federal government could not pass a law prohibiting me from painting my front door purple (that would be an infringement on my 1A rights) Uh, D.C. has plenty of aesthetic restrictions.
  - ttyprintk 2y ago
    Background: Washington, D.C. is not a state and in theory the US Congress performs state legislative practices for it. In practice, Congress has devolved civil policy to a mayor and devolved state court functions to a superior court. Purple door disputes wouldn’t be a Federal issue, but one of the D.C. superior court. The Feds have only intervened four times, and it was over much bigger features than HOAs. And the Supreme Court has actively closed loopholes where local issues relevant to any other state could become Federally interesting.
dmd 2y ago
But they do, every day, because fighting is far more expensive than acceding.
- ttyprintk 2y ago
  Some states require HOA disputes to attempt mediation, or mandate arbitration, before going to superior court. So I think you’re right, except in a technical or monetary sense.
gosub100 2y ago
https://mynews4.com/news/local/renos-caughlin-ranch-hoa-proposed-allowing-only-federally-and-state-decorations-halloween-flags-residents-rules-regulations https://mynews4.com/news/local/renos-caughlin-ranch-hoa-prop...
- otterley 2y ago
  https://firstamendment.mtsu.edu/article/zoning-laws/ https://firstamendment.mtsu.edu/article/zoning-laws/
  - gosub100 2y ago
    Zoning laws are not the same as HOA
    - otterley 2y ago
      They’re not, but I bring them up as mechanisms of how the state or smaller localities can prohibit or restrict a lot of uses of property without raising constitutional concerns. As a general rule, if the state can lawfully restrict certain activities, HOAs can, too.
Aloisius 2y ago
HOAs often restrict freedom of expression which would not be legal if done by a city government. The first amendment, however, only protects against government censorship, not private organization censorship so an HOA can force you to paint over the mural on your garage whereas a city government could not*. Some of this depends on state of course. California, for instance, recognizes HOAs as quasigovernments which imposes some restrictions on an HOAs power to censor speech, but many other states do not. * Case law on this is actually quite minimal. Local governments do try to ban free speech of course and almost certainly overstep their bounds, but no one has gotten a case to the Supreme Court.
- MichaelZuo 2y ago
  For free association to be meaningful the association has to be able to restrict freedom of expression, or kick out those who refuse the restrictions. Otherwise someone could just shout down any meeting the association decides to have. So the pertinent question would be, are HOAs legitimate associations in that sense?
  - otterley 2y ago
    HOAs are a creature of state law and only have power to the extent state law confers it. They are not voluntary associations of the sort contemplated by the First Amendment. You can't choose to join an HOA unless you own land that belongs to it, and you can't choose not to be a member when you acquire a property.
    - MichaelZuo 2y ago
      Has a court ever ruled on that distinction? HOAs seem to have withstood legal scrutiny…
      - otterley 2y ago
        Not yet, but I look forward to the day a sensible court does.
- 2y ago
deleted 2y ago
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ouddv 2y ago
That's a bit disingenuous. HOA's can (and regularly do) enforce rules that governmental entities are constitutionally prohibited from enforcing. Yes, technically not a violation because the HOA isn't technically government.
- otterley 2y ago
  Can you identify such a rule?
  - rawgabbit 2y ago
    https://www.ccfj.net/HOAFLevict6yearold.html https://www.ccfj.net/HOAFLevict6yearold.html 55-AND-OVER COMMUNITY WANTS TO EVICT FAMILY WITH 6-YEAR-OLD
    - otterley 2y ago
      State law enforces age restrictions on property in many circumstances. Adults can’t enter school property without registering with the main office. State law prohibits entry into bars and cannabis shops for people under certain ages. State law can prohibit minors from entering adult-oriented shops. And we not just make lawful but even encourage the creation of housing intended for aging adults: https://www.hud.gov/program_offices/fair_housing_equal_opp/fair_housing_act_housing_older_persons https://www.hud.gov/program_offices/fair_housing_equal_opp/f...
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
psunavy03 2y ago
Of course they can . . . because it's a "private association," which end-runs the whole idea of constitutional rights, which are designed to limit the power of government. Catholic associations don't have to admit non-Catholics, sororities don't have to admit men, etc. HOAs bastardize this by being "private" organizations that are fulfilling quasi-governmental-at-best roles.
- otterley 2y ago
  Can you identify a single such rule? HOAs are a creature of state law and only have power to the extent state law confers it. They are not voluntary associations of the sort contemplated by the First Amendment. You can't choose to join an HOA unless you own land that belongs to it, and you can't choose not to be a member when you acquire a property.
  - consteval 2y ago
    Yes, many HOAs have rules against political signage. This is blatantly a first amendment violation, but since they're technically a private organization, they can do that.
    - otterley 2y ago
      It depends on the state. Many states restrict HOAs from promulgating or enforcing rules about political speech. For those that don't, and where an HOA goes overboard in enforcement, I would very much like to see the case tried in Federal court. A proper ruling on the Constitutionality of certain HOA covenants is long overdue.

sokoloff 2y ago

Are you sure [in the context of GP's claim]? The Federal government could not pass a law prohibiting me from painting my front door purple (that would be an infringement on my 1A rights). As I understand it, an HOA can enforce such a prohibition as a private entity (and use the courts to back them, ultimately).

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> Federal government could not pass a law prohibiting me from painting my front door purple (that would be an infringement on my 1A rights) Uh, D.C. has plenty of aesthetic restrictions.
- ttyprintk 2y ago
  Background: Washington, D.C. is not a state and in theory the US Congress performs state legislative practices for it. In practice, Congress has devolved civil policy to a mayor and devolved state court functions to a superior court. Purple door disputes wouldn’t be a Federal issue, but one of the D.C. superior court. The Feds have only intervened four times, and it was over much bigger features than HOAs. And the Supreme Court has actively closed loopholes where local issues relevant to any other state could become Federally interesting.

dmd 2y ago

But they do, every day, because fighting is far more expensive than acceding.

ttyprintk 2y ago
Some states require HOA disputes to attempt mediation, or mandate arbitration, before going to superior court. So I think you’re right, except in a technical or monetary sense.

gosub100 2y ago

https://mynews4.com/news/local/renos-caughlin-ranch-hoa-proposed-allowing-only-federally-and-state-decorations-halloween-flags-residents-rules-regulations https://mynews4.com/news/local/renos-caughlin-ranch-hoa-prop...

otterley 2y ago
https://firstamendment.mtsu.edu/article/zoning-laws/ https://firstamendment.mtsu.edu/article/zoning-laws/
- gosub100 2y ago
  Zoning laws are not the same as HOA
  - otterley 2y ago
    They’re not, but I bring them up as mechanisms of how the state or smaller localities can prohibit or restrict a lot of uses of property without raising constitutional concerns. As a general rule, if the state can lawfully restrict certain activities, HOAs can, too.

Aloisius 2y ago

HOAs often restrict freedom of expression which would not be legal if done by a city government. The first amendment, however, only protects against government censorship, not private organization censorship so an HOA can force you to paint over the mural on your garage whereas a city government could not*. Some of this depends on state of course. California, for instance, recognizes HOAs as quasigovernments which imposes some restrictions on an HOAs power to censor speech, but many other states do not. * Case law on this is actually quite minimal. Local governments do try to ban free speech of course and almost certainly overstep their bounds, but no one has gotten a case to the Supreme Court.

MichaelZuo 2y ago
For free association to be meaningful the association has to be able to restrict freedom of expression, or kick out those who refuse the restrictions. Otherwise someone could just shout down any meeting the association decides to have. So the pertinent question would be, are HOAs legitimate associations in that sense?
- otterley 2y ago
  HOAs are a creature of state law and only have power to the extent state law confers it. They are not voluntary associations of the sort contemplated by the First Amendment. You can't choose to join an HOA unless you own land that belongs to it, and you can't choose not to be a member when you acquire a property.
  - MichaelZuo 2y ago
    Has a court ever ruled on that distinction? HOAs seem to have withstood legal scrutiny…
    - otterley 2y ago
      Not yet, but I look forward to the day a sensible court does.
2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

ouddv 2y ago

That's a bit disingenuous. HOA's can (and regularly do) enforce rules that governmental entities are constitutionally prohibited from enforcing. Yes, technically not a violation because the HOA isn't technically government.

otterley 2y ago
Can you identify such a rule?
- rawgabbit 2y ago
  https://www.ccfj.net/HOAFLevict6yearold.html https://www.ccfj.net/HOAFLevict6yearold.html 55-AND-OVER COMMUNITY WANTS TO EVICT FAMILY WITH 6-YEAR-OLD
  - otterley 2y ago
    State law enforces age restrictions on property in many circumstances. Adults can’t enter school property without registering with the main office. State law prohibits entry into bars and cannabis shops for people under certain ages. State law can prohibit minors from entering adult-oriented shops. And we not just make lawful but even encourage the creation of housing intended for aging adults: https://www.hud.gov/program_offices/fair_housing_equal_opp/fair_housing_act_housing_older_persons https://www.hud.gov/program_offices/fair_housing_equal_opp/f...
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]

psunavy03 2y ago

Of course they can . . . because it's a "private association," which end-runs the whole idea of constitutional rights, which are designed to limit the power of government. Catholic associations don't have to admit non-Catholics, sororities don't have to admit men, etc. HOAs bastardize this by being "private" organizations that are fulfilling quasi-governmental-at-best roles.

otterley 2y ago
Can you identify a single such rule? HOAs are a creature of state law and only have power to the extent state law confers it. They are not voluntary associations of the sort contemplated by the First Amendment. You can't choose to join an HOA unless you own land that belongs to it, and you can't choose not to be a member when you acquire a property.
- consteval 2y ago
  Yes, many HOAs have rules against political signage. This is blatantly a first amendment violation, but since they're technically a private organization, they can do that.
  - otterley 2y ago
    It depends on the state. Many states restrict HOAs from promulgating or enforcing rules about political speech. For those that don't, and where an HOA goes overboard in enforcement, I would very much like to see the case tried in Federal court. A proper ruling on the Constitutionality of certain HOA covenants is long overdue.