5 ms·

I learned this in my very first corporate job at Factset and it made me sick of them; it's the main reason why I've worked at a bunch of startups. If the manag

I learned this in my very first corporate job at Factset and it made me sick of them; it's the main reason why I've worked at a bunch of startups. If the manager likes you, they will see the things you do in a positive light. If the manager doesn't like you, they will see the things you do in a negative light. So obviously, the solution is to optimize for always keeping the manager happy... except that that is a little dehumanizing. It's basically like any relationship coupled with confirmation bias. Basically, if you get onto the shit-list of your partner or friend or manager, it is difficult to get off it. People seem to automatically polarize their opinions about other people (probably due to confirmation bias) and then just apply post-hoc justification. If nothing else, I have gotten very good at noticing the change of tone when the point-of-no-return is reached (perhaps because I feel like I am terrible at avoiding it). You'll feel some queasiness/nausea after a conversation that went from friendly to critical based on something you perhaps flubbed... you'll start blaming yourself (even though you probably didn't actually have a ton of control over the outcome). Something will feel "off." Things won't feel as harmonious anymore. Details will be off- you didn't get invited to an important meeting that you are pretty sure you would have been invited to months prior. A new hire will get approved, but without anyone checking in with you first. You will feel like you are on the defensive and are working "defensively"- you're struggling to complete work or put presentations together or whatever- you're not sleeping well- those are all the feel of the ring ropes against your back, because you're actually on them, and you're in denial. It's hard not to take personally; has anyone actually ever been put on a PIP that made it back to "stellar performer", or are PIPs purely just lip-service to a CYA for the inevitable layoff?

hinkley 2y ago
Gottman has documented this phenomenon in romantic partnerships, and I personally think we overplay the differences in romantic versus other partnerships, like teamwork, mentor/mentee, boss/employee. In a good relationship, neutral acts are seen as neutral. In a struggling relationship, neutral acts are interpreted as negative. They don't exactly come out and say it, but to an extent your problems with another person are all in your head, and there are things they can do about it but it's a lot of work, because any time you're not actively being awesome you might be getting construed as a shithead.
- hackit2 2y ago
  I think you've got it around backwards. Your trying to look for external validation instead of having a internal locus of control. It is nice to talk about observation of people and some how rationalize some inner monologue of some sort of internal mental model but it is just a exercise in conjecture. Just focus on developing your own set of qualities that you want from people. If people meet those qualities then great but if they don't then just move on. All you can do with people is sit down and shut up, and let them do what-ever they want to do, and then you get to decide if you want to participate in it or not.
  - lnenad 2y ago
    In an ideal scenario maybe, but we are social animals and we don't always conscientiously choose whose emotional feedback we value (in the case of managers/mentors/etc we cannot even choose)
  - hinkley 2y ago
    That’s quite a guess, and wrong. But I don’t know how you construe performance reviews as anything other than external validation/invalidation. My bank account cares if I give a shit what my boss thinks about my work.
makz 2y ago
1000% agree with this, couldn't have explained it better myself
sulam 2y ago
Re: PIPs, it depends on how they’re used. For stronger managers, who address issues quickly, a PIP (even informal) can be effective at creating behavior change that sticks. However the way many companies practice them, they are simply a formal recognition by HR that things have gotten intolerable. The only way out of one of these other than leaving is to move to another team. Thankfully companies who practice this style of PIP are also usually full of junior managers who are easy to convince that they can “fix” whatever issues have caused the situation to arise.
- eweise 2y ago
  If its been documented then you're probably on your way out, or you should at least operate as if you are. I don't think a "stronger manager" would put you on an official PIP if they wanted to address the issue quickly. They would probably have a face to face discussion and let you know what the issue is. Nothing else is required.
  - sulam 2y ago
    I know this forum is suspicious of managers on general principle, and that’s sometimes appropriate, especially the more layers there are between decisions your manager is executing vs where they were made. That said, it is my experience that some managers truly want people to improve when they’re operating below expectations at a given level, and furthermore that some people need that feedback written down, formally, for it to really land and produce change. I am happy to accept that the majority of cases where you’ve gotten a formal PIP that HR is involved with will end with the employee’s termination. I don’t have industry data on this but it would match both my actual experience and the experience of my peers as has been relayed to me over the years. But someone in that situation should be open to the possibility that they can truly succeed if the dominoes fall correctly. There are many signals along the way that will also inform you what your manager in turn believes and even HR sometimes gives themselves away despite the legal risks they are trained to avoid. Finally, there’s a spectrum of how people use the term PIP. At the far end is what you’ve described, a written document that exists to provide evidence in the event of litigation and is largely HR driven. However a manager can absolutely use the same structure and terminology and never involve HR and hopefully we both agree those are more likely to result in win-win outcomes. In fact the trend in this space is towards a continuous performance management environment where expectations are formally defined and updated and checked in on at least quarterly if not more frequently.
supriyo-biswas 2y ago
> It's basically like any relationship coupled with confirmation bias. Basically, if you get onto the shit-list of your partner or friend or manager, it is difficult to get off it. On that note, the article "The Set-Up-To-Fail Syndrome" by the Harvard Business Review[1] covers similar ground and was discussed on HN[2]. [1] https://hbr.org/1998/03/the-set-up-to-fail-syndrome https://hbr.org/1998/03/the-set-up-to-fail-syndrome [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39879250 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39879250
- hunter-gatherer 2y ago
  I normally brush this stuff off, but I have gone from a high performer to something lower in the past 6 months because my team got a new boss, and we are all miserable. I'm definitely in that cycle that is described in the Harvard Business Review. No matter what I do I can't seem to get off the shit list, and was just venting to my wife about it last week. Good to know it isn't just me.
- unboxedtype 2y ago
  Thanks so much for sharing this HBR article, it is so useful!
krisoft 2y ago
The best ever advice I received from my dad, maybe the only advice he ever gave me, was exactly what you are writing here. It was a few days before my first day at elementary school. He told me that teachers very quickly put people into little boxes. “The good students” vs the “troublemakers”. If you end up in the first basically no matter what you do they will see your output in a more positive light. They will forgive your mistakes as “momentary lapses”. If you are in the second category no matter what you do they will see your work in a negative light. If you do well that will be because you got lucky, or because you cheated. Or so they will think. And how they feel about you will affect your grades, your everyday, and your opportunities. And this is completely and utterly unfair, but this is how it is. You can’t change it, but you can learn to use it to your advantage. So i put in some extra effort to the first few days of elementary school and coasting on that ever since. ;) Later as i got older i learned that managers work the same way. Obviously it doesn’t mean that one can completely neglect the actual work, but one’s manager’s (and manager’s manager’s) perception is paramount.
- irjustin 2y ago
  100% agreed. This is very much human nature and impossible to avoid. I do this; you do this. We meet someone and very rapidly bucket them into whatever categories we've built over the years. When you're younger, it takes longer because those buckets aren't as well defined. But once I've played someone, it's very hard for them to move into another. My favorite clip that encapsulates this thread is from Suits[0]. Mike hates it, but first impressions matter. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjQOu4cVm8c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjQOu4cVm8c
  - pmarreck 2y ago
    ha, haven’t been much of a TV show watcher in years (I play games for entertainment) and never heard of this show (nor did I know that Meghan Markle was a TV actress before now, LOL… also, damn she was fine in 2011!) but this one looks entertaining, especially because I live 40 minutes from NYC… Anyway, insightful clip!
- bravura 2y ago
jimmydddd 2y ago
I vote for PIP's just being for documenting purposes for CYA.

hinkley 2y ago

Gottman has documented this phenomenon in romantic partnerships, and I personally think we overplay the differences in romantic versus other partnerships, like teamwork, mentor/mentee, boss/employee. In a good relationship, neutral acts are seen as neutral. In a struggling relationship, neutral acts are interpreted as negative. They don't exactly come out and say it, but to an extent your problems with another person are all in your head, and there are things they can do about it but it's a lot of work, because any time you're not actively being awesome you might be getting construed as a shithead.

hackit2 2y ago
I think you've got it around backwards. Your trying to look for external validation instead of having a internal locus of control. It is nice to talk about observation of people and some how rationalize some inner monologue of some sort of internal mental model but it is just a exercise in conjecture. Just focus on developing your own set of qualities that you want from people. If people meet those qualities then great but if they don't then just move on. All you can do with people is sit down and shut up, and let them do what-ever they want to do, and then you get to decide if you want to participate in it or not.
- lnenad 2y ago
  In an ideal scenario maybe, but we are social animals and we don't always conscientiously choose whose emotional feedback we value (in the case of managers/mentors/etc we cannot even choose)
- hinkley 2y ago
  That’s quite a guess, and wrong. But I don’t know how you construe performance reviews as anything other than external validation/invalidation. My bank account cares if I give a shit what my boss thinks about my work.

makz 2y ago

1000% agree with this, couldn't have explained it better myself

sulam 2y ago

Re: PIPs, it depends on how they’re used. For stronger managers, who address issues quickly, a PIP (even informal) can be effective at creating behavior change that sticks. However the way many companies practice them, they are simply a formal recognition by HR that things have gotten intolerable. The only way out of one of these other than leaving is to move to another team. Thankfully companies who practice this style of PIP are also usually full of junior managers who are easy to convince that they can “fix” whatever issues have caused the situation to arise.

eweise 2y ago
If its been documented then you're probably on your way out, or you should at least operate as if you are. I don't think a "stronger manager" would put you on an official PIP if they wanted to address the issue quickly. They would probably have a face to face discussion and let you know what the issue is. Nothing else is required.
- sulam 2y ago
  I know this forum is suspicious of managers on general principle, and that’s sometimes appropriate, especially the more layers there are between decisions your manager is executing vs where they were made. That said, it is my experience that some managers truly want people to improve when they’re operating below expectations at a given level, and furthermore that some people need that feedback written down, formally, for it to really land and produce change. I am happy to accept that the majority of cases where you’ve gotten a formal PIP that HR is involved with will end with the employee’s termination. I don’t have industry data on this but it would match both my actual experience and the experience of my peers as has been relayed to me over the years. But someone in that situation should be open to the possibility that they can truly succeed if the dominoes fall correctly. There are many signals along the way that will also inform you what your manager in turn believes and even HR sometimes gives themselves away despite the legal risks they are trained to avoid. Finally, there’s a spectrum of how people use the term PIP. At the far end is what you’ve described, a written document that exists to provide evidence in the event of litigation and is largely HR driven. However a manager can absolutely use the same structure and terminology and never involve HR and hopefully we both agree those are more likely to result in win-win outcomes. In fact the trend in this space is towards a continuous performance management environment where expectations are formally defined and updated and checked in on at least quarterly if not more frequently.

supriyo-biswas 2y ago

> It's basically like any relationship coupled with confirmation bias. Basically, if you get onto the shit-list of your partner or friend or manager, it is difficult to get off it. On that note, the article "The Set-Up-To-Fail Syndrome" by the Harvard Business Review[1] covers similar ground and was discussed on HN[2]. [1] https://hbr.org/1998/03/the-set-up-to-fail-syndrome https://hbr.org/1998/03/the-set-up-to-fail-syndrome [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39879250 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39879250

hunter-gatherer 2y ago
I normally brush this stuff off, but I have gone from a high performer to something lower in the past 6 months because my team got a new boss, and we are all miserable. I'm definitely in that cycle that is described in the Harvard Business Review. No matter what I do I can't seem to get off the shit list, and was just venting to my wife about it last week. Good to know it isn't just me.
unboxedtype 2y ago
Thanks so much for sharing this HBR article, it is so useful!

krisoft 2y ago

The best ever advice I received from my dad, maybe the only advice he ever gave me, was exactly what you are writing here. It was a few days before my first day at elementary school. He told me that teachers very quickly put people into little boxes. “The good students” vs the “troublemakers”. If you end up in the first basically no matter what you do they will see your output in a more positive light. They will forgive your mistakes as “momentary lapses”. If you are in the second category no matter what you do they will see your work in a negative light. If you do well that will be because you got lucky, or because you cheated. Or so they will think. And how they feel about you will affect your grades, your everyday, and your opportunities. And this is completely and utterly unfair, but this is how it is. You can’t change it, but you can learn to use it to your advantage. So i put in some extra effort to the first few days of elementary school and coasting on that ever since. ;) Later as i got older i learned that managers work the same way. Obviously it doesn’t mean that one can completely neglect the actual work, but one’s manager’s (and manager’s manager’s) perception is paramount.

irjustin 2y ago
100% agreed. This is very much human nature and impossible to avoid. I do this; you do this. We meet someone and very rapidly bucket them into whatever categories we've built over the years. When you're younger, it takes longer because those buckets aren't as well defined. But once I've played someone, it's very hard for them to move into another. My favorite clip that encapsulates this thread is from Suits[0]. Mike hates it, but first impressions matter. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjQOu4cVm8c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjQOu4cVm8c
- pmarreck 2y ago
  ha, haven’t been much of a TV show watcher in years (I play games for entertainment) and never heard of this show (nor did I know that Meghan Markle was a TV actress before now, LOL… also, damn she was fine in 2011!) but this one looks entertaining, especially because I live 40 minutes from NYC… Anyway, insightful clip!
bravura 2y ago

jimmydddd 2y ago

I vote for PIP's just being for documenting purposes for CYA.