5 ms·

No? It's a problem because there's no precedent for RTO. But, things like changing an employee's work location, hours among other things is constructive dismiss

No? It's a problem because there's no precedent for RTO. But, things like changing an employee's work location, hours among other things is constructive dismissal. And, if it can be shown to disproportionately affect a certain group (eg, "developers", or "developers for product x". The more disproportionate and more specific the stronger the case). Or, if execs get caught/are dumb enough to say that it's intended to reduct head count. Then it may be an illegal layoff. (Afaik that one's mostly california)

SoftTalker 2y ago
California might well be different; I don't know, and don't live there. Where I live, any employee can be fired for any reason, or no reason (protected class stuff excepted of course). There's precident for "we're transferring you to the Chicago office, Bob" and Bob would just pack up the family from wherever they were living and move. This was common in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s at least for white collar jobs.
- chaosharmonic 2y ago
  > Where I live, any employee can be fired for any reason, or no reason (protected class stuff excepted of course) Also protected activities.
- Lammy 2y ago
  > This was common in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s It's a consistently downward trend: https://www.freddiemac.com/sites/g/files/ynjofi111/files/styles/wide/public/202101-is-charts-ex03.jpg?itok=LJdBRl_S https://www.freddiemac.com/sites/g/files/ynjofi111/files/sty... My completely uninformed assumption is that this (inverse) graph has something to do with it, since anybody who finds a “good thing” in any region would be increasingly unlikely to want to give it up: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/USSTHPI https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/USSTHPI
ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
Disproportionality matters if the policies had a disparate impact on a protected class.
- telgareith 2y ago
  in this context? I'm pretty sure not. I'm not talking Discrimination. Trying to mask a layoff by taking actions that mostly affect the group they're trying to layoff... is an illegal layoff. See: https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/cal-warnact.html https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/cal-warnact.html And, california has shown repeatedly that they're perfectly willing to enforce cal-WARN on companies that barely have a CA presence... never-mind ones that have their HQ there. Yes, this includes layoffs that don't touch a CA resident.
miltonlost 2y ago
> It's a problem because there's no precedent for RTO. But, things like changing an employee's work location, hours among other things is constructive dismissal. RTO, after years of hiring remote only positions, IS changing an employee's work location. Grindr employees worked from home 5 days a week, across the US. Then the RTO would make engineers move to Chicago and go into an office 2 times a week. In what world is this RTO not changing employee's work location?
- thrw42A8N 2y ago
  In the world where they only hired people who told them they live and work in Chicago. Not saying that's what happened here, but it'd really not be their fault if people took advantage of a situation and moved away or lied during an interview/on the contract. Are you sure they don't have Chicago as the contractual place of work? In Europe that's standard if you work remotely - exactly because of this.
  - consteval 2y ago
    I generally think this "playing dumb" argument companies sometimes employ doesn't fly (or, at least, shouldn't). You don't have to be a genius to figure out that hiring fully remote means you will get workers all over the US. The executives knew that, were counting on that, and have benefited a lot from that. I don't think you should be able to get away with an "erm, akshually" level technicality.
    - SoftTalker 2y ago
      The executives knew, and the employees knew. I think there's little doubt of that. Then the executives changed their mind. That happens, and as an employee you either accept it or you move on. Or try to negotiate an exception. But you don't really have any kind of legal claim for damages.
      - consteval 2y ago
        We will see if they have a legal claim for damages. Contrary to popular American beliefs, companies don't have free range to do whatever they want. You can't orchestrate a lay-off and weasel around it. If that is in fact what happened, they could face punitive action - certainly other companies have in the past.

SoftTalker 2y ago

California might well be different; I don't know, and don't live there. Where I live, any employee can be fired for any reason, or no reason (protected class stuff excepted of course). There's precident for "we're transferring you to the Chicago office, Bob" and Bob would just pack up the family from wherever they were living and move. This was common in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s at least for white collar jobs.

chaosharmonic 2y ago
> Where I live, any employee can be fired for any reason, or no reason (protected class stuff excepted of course) Also protected activities.
Lammy 2y ago
> This was common in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s It's a consistently downward trend: https://www.freddiemac.com/sites/g/files/ynjofi111/files/styles/wide/public/202101-is-charts-ex03.jpg?itok=LJdBRl_S https://www.freddiemac.com/sites/g/files/ynjofi111/files/sty... My completely uninformed assumption is that this (inverse) graph has something to do with it, since anybody who finds a “good thing” in any region would be increasingly unlikely to want to give it up: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/USSTHPI https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/USSTHPI

ImPostingOnHN 2y ago

Disproportionality matters if the policies had a disparate impact on a protected class.

telgareith 2y ago
in this context? I'm pretty sure not. I'm not talking Discrimination. Trying to mask a layoff by taking actions that mostly affect the group they're trying to layoff... is an illegal layoff. See: https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/cal-warnact.html https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/cal-warnact.html And, california has shown repeatedly that they're perfectly willing to enforce cal-WARN on companies that barely have a CA presence... never-mind ones that have their HQ there. Yes, this includes layoffs that don't touch a CA resident.

miltonlost 2y ago

> It's a problem because there's no precedent for RTO. But, things like changing an employee's work location, hours among other things is constructive dismissal. RTO, after years of hiring remote only positions, IS changing an employee's work location. Grindr employees worked from home 5 days a week, across the US. Then the RTO would make engineers move to Chicago and go into an office 2 times a week. In what world is this RTO not changing employee's work location?

thrw42A8N 2y ago
In the world where they only hired people who told them they live and work in Chicago. Not saying that's what happened here, but it'd really not be their fault if people took advantage of a situation and moved away or lied during an interview/on the contract. Are you sure they don't have Chicago as the contractual place of work? In Europe that's standard if you work remotely - exactly because of this.
- consteval 2y ago
  I generally think this "playing dumb" argument companies sometimes employ doesn't fly (or, at least, shouldn't). You don't have to be a genius to figure out that hiring fully remote means you will get workers all over the US. The executives knew that, were counting on that, and have benefited a lot from that. I don't think you should be able to get away with an "erm, akshually" level technicality.
  - SoftTalker 2y ago
    The executives knew, and the employees knew. I think there's little doubt of that. Then the executives changed their mind. That happens, and as an employee you either accept it or you move on. Or try to negotiate an exception. But you don't really have any kind of legal claim for damages.
    - consteval 2y ago
      We will see if they have a legal claim for damages. Contrary to popular American beliefs, companies don't have free range to do whatever they want. You can't orchestrate a lay-off and weasel around it. If that is in fact what happened, they could face punitive action - certainly other companies have in the past.