4 ms·

It's not fine. It sucks for just about everyone involved except the business owner.

gruez 2y ago
This fails to consider second order effects. Adding more friction to firings also makes teams less performant (as they fail to get rid of underperforming employees), as makes finding a job more difficult (because companies are more reluctant to hire on the off chance they get a bad employee they can't get rid of). This isn't theoretical. Returns suck for retailers, but they still voluntarily offer it because it entices consumers to buy things they wouldn't otherwise buy.
- krainboltgreene 2y ago
  There's no evidence that "adding more friction to firings also makes teams less performant". Your statement relies on two assumptions: (1) employers are reliable at determining "underperforming", (2) employers are making choices based of performance. There's no evidence that it makes "finding a job more difficult". There are entire swaths of this earth that have the framework that we're talking about and their job markets are just fine. I know that an online form makes it easy to just position yourself as correct, but you're arguing against reality.
  - gruez 2y ago
    >Your statement relies on two assumptions: (1) employers are reliable at determining "underperforming", (2) employers are making choices based of performance. 1. You could make similar arguments about consumers being qualified to determine product quality. Are retailers dumbasses for wasting money accepting returns? 2. When it comes to hiring/firing decisions, perception of competence is as important (if not more so), as actual competence (if you can even define that). No manager is going to be assuaged by "well actually, you're pretty bad at determining competence, so you should be glad that we're requiring you to file a bunch of paperwork before you can fire someone". >There's no evidence that it makes "finding a job more difficult". There are entire swaths of this earth that have the framework that we're talking about and their job markets are just fine. New hires rate in Europe (with famously stronger labor protections) is around 10% per year in 2022. US meanwhile is more than 4% per month. https://www.cedefop.europa.eu/en/tools/skills-intelligence/recently-hired-workers?year=2022 https://www.cedefop.europa.eu/en/tools/skills-intelligence/r... https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/JTS000000000000000HIR https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/JTS000000000000000HIR
  - zeroonetwothree 2y ago
    > There's no evidence that it makes "finding a job more difficult". The unemployment rate in Europe is 6% vs. 4% in the US. I find that some evidence that it's at least a little more difficult.

This fails to consider second order effects. Adding more friction to firings also makes teams less performant (as they fail to get rid of underperforming employees), as makes finding a job more difficult (because companies are more reluctant to hire on the off chance they get a bad employee they can't get rid of). This isn't theoretical. Returns suck for retailers, but they still voluntarily offer it because it entices consumers to buy things they wouldn't otherwise buy.

krainboltgreene 2y ago
There's no evidence that "adding more friction to firings also makes teams less performant". Your statement relies on two assumptions: (1) employers are reliable at determining "underperforming", (2) employers are making choices based of performance. There's no evidence that it makes "finding a job more difficult". There are entire swaths of this earth that have the framework that we're talking about and their job markets are just fine. I know that an online form makes it easy to just position yourself as correct, but you're arguing against reality.
- gruez 2y ago
  >Your statement relies on two assumptions: (1) employers are reliable at determining "underperforming", (2) employers are making choices based of performance. 1. You could make similar arguments about consumers being qualified to determine product quality. Are retailers dumbasses for wasting money accepting returns? 2. When it comes to hiring/firing decisions, perception of competence is as important (if not more so), as actual competence (if you can even define that). No manager is going to be assuaged by "well actually, you're pretty bad at determining competence, so you should be glad that we're requiring you to file a bunch of paperwork before you can fire someone". >There's no evidence that it makes "finding a job more difficult". There are entire swaths of this earth that have the framework that we're talking about and their job markets are just fine. New hires rate in Europe (with famously stronger labor protections) is around 10% per year in 2022. US meanwhile is more than 4% per month. https://www.cedefop.europa.eu/en/tools/skills-intelligence/recently-hired-workers?year=2022 https://www.cedefop.europa.eu/en/tools/skills-intelligence/r... https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/JTS000000000000000HIR https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/JTS000000000000000HIR
- zeroonetwothree 2y ago
  > There's no evidence that it makes "finding a job more difficult". The unemployment rate in Europe is 6% vs. 4% in the US. I find that some evidence that it's at least a little more difficult.