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Due process for employment is probably more important than fair pay in most union contracts. Your argument is in fact that exact same one that was used to argu

Due process for employment is probably more important than fair pay in most union contracts. Your argument is in fact that exact same one that was used to argue against due process in legal proceedings. "In reality it doesn't play out and you get this group of criminals running free on legal technicalities." If you are in a union shop and have a large contingent of unproductive employees, it happens for the same reason as non-union shops. You have bad management. Just Cause is almost entirely asking management to do a little paperwork and a little planning, things that are supposed to be their job anyway.

kortilla 2y ago
> Your argument is in fact that exact same one that was used to argue against due process in legal proceedings. "In reality it doesn't play out and you get this group of criminals running free on legal technicalities." Dumb comparison. Losing a job is not the same as losing a legal action. You can’t just go get a different life if you’re convicted of robbery. > it happens for the same reason as non-union shops. You have bad management. No, sometimes employees are just bad and work the system to keep the job as long as possible with no intention of improving.
- drawkward 2y ago
  Where is this legendary employer who instantly hires all takers, no questions asked?
  - FredPret 2y ago
    The actual development of capitalism around the world has shown that when business is thriving, there tends to be lots of employers willing to mop up any excess labour. We’ve seen a ton of automation and offshoring for centuries now but employment around the world just keeps improving.
    - drawkward 2y ago
      And yet, we have a positive unemployment rate!
      - FredPret 2y ago
        True but that’s inevitable. A certain % of people are always going to be in the process of switching jobs.
        drawkward 2y ago
        Which is why I reponded to the commenter who said >Dumb comparison. Losing a job is not the same as losing a legal action. You can’t just go get a different life if you’re convicted of robbery. Because, as you just admitted, you can't just go get a different job if you're unfairly fired.
        FredPret 2y ago
        I admitted no such thing. Read again. - in a thriving environment, lots of companies are hiring - some people quit or get fired, and it takes a couple of months to get a new job. This is no biggie in a country where the median individual has a net worth of 192k. [0] (yet another argument in favour of a thriving business environment). - so some % of people will always be temporarily unemployed. [0] https://www.investopedia.com/average-americans-net-worth-8713595#:~:text=Key%20Takeaways,have%20much%20higher%20net%20worth https://www.investopedia.com/average-americans-net-worth-871....
        drawkward 2y ago
        >no biggie Loll, youre a pretty funny person. No biggie, ill just sell my house to feed myself. You conveniently ignore the fact that this is the median family net worth, not individual net worth. Further, this will include retired families, who will have access to social security, medicare, and mature 401k/pension plans. This is not anywherenearthe median net worth of a working individual. If youre going to quote statistics, please at least do so responsibly.
  - kortilla 2y ago
    It doesn’t exist and doesn’t need to. The current job market makes it abundantly clear that people are able to get some form of employment easily, even if it’s not what they want. The point is that the comparison to due process is shockingly stupid. If the government imprisons you, you are done. Your life in civilization is over for the duration of your incarceration and you have no other options. Anyone who thinks due process against the monopoly of violence is the same as due process for a payment from a company is completely tone deaf and has never dealt with the impact of government imprisonment. Being unemployed indefinitely is far better than imprisonment.
infecto 2y ago
What argument have I made other than a question? I would like to see data how it plays out. Now I have some ideas of how it plays out but it would be interesting if there was a way to have a test/control group in these types of contracts. I find the struggles here interesting and its fun to watch them play out.
morgante 2y ago
Incorrectly firing a high performer is nowhere near the harm of incorrectly jailing an innocent man.

kortilla 2y ago

> Your argument is in fact that exact same one that was used to argue against due process in legal proceedings. "In reality it doesn't play out and you get this group of criminals running free on legal technicalities." Dumb comparison. Losing a job is not the same as losing a legal action. You can’t just go get a different life if you’re convicted of robbery. > it happens for the same reason as non-union shops. You have bad management. No, sometimes employees are just bad and work the system to keep the job as long as possible with no intention of improving.

drawkward 2y ago
Where is this legendary employer who instantly hires all takers, no questions asked?
- FredPret 2y ago
  The actual development of capitalism around the world has shown that when business is thriving, there tends to be lots of employers willing to mop up any excess labour. We’ve seen a ton of automation and offshoring for centuries now but employment around the world just keeps improving.
  - drawkward 2y ago
    And yet, we have a positive unemployment rate!
    - FredPret 2y ago
      True but that’s inevitable. A certain % of people are always going to be in the process of switching jobs.
      - drawkward 2y ago
        Which is why I reponded to the commenter who said >Dumb comparison. Losing a job is not the same as losing a legal action. You can’t just go get a different life if you’re convicted of robbery. Because, as you just admitted, you can't just go get a different job if you're unfairly fired.
        FredPret 2y ago
        I admitted no such thing. Read again. - in a thriving environment, lots of companies are hiring - some people quit or get fired, and it takes a couple of months to get a new job. This is no biggie in a country where the median individual has a net worth of 192k. [0] (yet another argument in favour of a thriving business environment). - so some % of people will always be temporarily unemployed. [0] https://www.investopedia.com/average-americans-net-worth-8713595#:~:text=Key%20Takeaways,have%20much%20higher%20net%20worth https://www.investopedia.com/average-americans-net-worth-871....
        drawkward 2y ago
        >no biggie Loll, youre a pretty funny person. No biggie, ill just sell my house to feed myself. You conveniently ignore the fact that this is the median family net worth, not individual net worth. Further, this will include retired families, who will have access to social security, medicare, and mature 401k/pension plans. This is not anywherenearthe median net worth of a working individual. If youre going to quote statistics, please at least do so responsibly.
- kortilla 2y ago
  It doesn’t exist and doesn’t need to. The current job market makes it abundantly clear that people are able to get some form of employment easily, even if it’s not what they want. The point is that the comparison to due process is shockingly stupid. If the government imprisons you, you are done. Your life in civilization is over for the duration of your incarceration and you have no other options. Anyone who thinks due process against the monopoly of violence is the same as due process for a payment from a company is completely tone deaf and has never dealt with the impact of government imprisonment. Being unemployed indefinitely is far better than imprisonment.

infecto 2y ago

What argument have I made other than a question? I would like to see data how it plays out. Now I have some ideas of how it plays out but it would be interesting if there was a way to have a test/control group in these types of contracts. I find the struggles here interesting and its fun to watch them play out.

morgante 2y ago

Incorrectly firing a high performer is nowhere near the harm of incorrectly jailing an innocent man.