5 ms·

Off The Wall, Thriller, and Bad. What an incredible run for both Quincy Jones and Michael Jackson.

by drooopy 2y ago

kevin_thibedeau 2y ago
That was his middle stage career. Gems like 'Sinatra at the Sands' are worth a listen for his talented arrangements.
- qsi 2y ago
  The "It Might As Well Be Swing" album by Frank Sinatra with the Count Basie band was my introduction to Quincy Jones, who did the arrangement. It is one of my favorite albums in Sinatra's discography.
agumonkey 2y ago
It's strange to realize how sophisticated "pop" music was at the time. Lots of beautiful harmonies, violins ..
- giraffe_lady 2y ago
  I liked pop then and I like pop now, and I liked it the whole time in between, and I don't think you can say pop is less sophisticated now. The conventions of the genre have shifted because of communion with rock, hip hop and electronic dance music. But violins are just an instrument, no more sophisticated or less than any other arrangement choice. Now the complexity is in the rhythmic interactions, and the timbral palette available to producers. The musicality of pop musicians and especially studio performers and producers is just unreal right now.
  - agumonkey 2y ago
    Link me some stuff worth listening too, I stopped scanning the recent music releases because most of it (except a few exceptions) felt like soup.
    - giraffe_lady 2y ago
      So, not all but quite a few "radio pop" artists actually have excellent studio albums, from which the radio singles are basically the worst songs. Like ariana grande had an incredible three-album run with dangerous woman, sweetener, thank u next. Dua Lipa's future nostalgia is another one of these, full of popified funk and dancehall grooves. Bass players love that album. So don't write off bad radio pop without giving the album a listen, there's quite a lot of good music hidden in plain sight. Other than that some of my favorites from the last approximate decade in no particular order (in format: album - artist) are froot - marina and the diamonds; I feel alive - TOPS; shabrang - sevdaliza; unfortunately, terror jr - terror jr; take me apart - kelela; somewhere in between - verite; dogviolet - laurel; empathogen - willow; expectations - hayley kiyoko; once twice melody - beach house; the fool - ryn weaver. Pop is hard to define as a genre, particularly it tends to blend into r&b and indie rock so some people might categorize some these differently. And most are "indie pop" but afaict that's just pop by non-famous musicians. That ryn weaver album is probably the best in the list, it's a monster masterpiece that deserves to be more widely known.
      - agumonkey 2y ago
        I'll take a peek, but i'm surprised, I stopped caring (pun slightly intended) about dua liap around future nostalgia. There's some nice bass in it but it's crude. The recent willow single was interesting that's true. Only people that manage to give me a sense of depth were thundercat/knower, benny sings But I still miss some of the subtle harmonics from edits like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVhl896h2NI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVhl896h2NI . There are other studio sessions with isolated vocals which afaik are not made this way anymore ps: ryn makes good pop, colorful, but i don't know, maybe a different approach to voicings, it's missing something psedit: fixed link
        giraffe_lady 2y ago
        Yeah ryn's raw musicality is unreal but that album is underproduced and doesn't do her justice. I still think it's a masterpiece but the criticism is legit. I was really hoping to hear another from her but I'm not sure what it would be like now, the sound has changed a lot and I'm not sure what she's been up to. If you like knower and thundercat there is a ton of great music that in that intersection of funk, pop, contemporary jazz. I was trying to stick to more "straight pop." Anyway with those guys I don't think the musicianship or sophistication is remotely in dispute.
- treebeard901 2y ago
  I have been thinking about this some lately. The loss of complexity in main stream music. One of the most popular songs this year is just f# f# g ... f# ... I am sure someone can figure out which song it is. While the music sounds great and sells, my theory is that it comes as a result of losing music classes in many public schools. Over decades it has led to a loss of complexity. Then again, I am probably just old.
  - Ardon 2y ago
    I wonder which way the causal arrow goes? I'm confident more complex (and also excellent) music is being made now than ever before so it wouldn't be a supply problem. Could be a demand problem, or a transit problem, maybe. It wouldn't be terribly surprising if it's the audience that has dragged things towards simplicity. Could also be the homogenizing effect of recommendation algorithms that select for mass appeal, a song that everyone likes at an average of 7/10 is selected for way harder than a song that 50% of people like at an average of 9/10.
    - TheOtherHobbes 2y ago
      You really do need gatekeeping and curation in art. Otherwise it regresses to the mean - which is where the money is, but not the danger or surprise.
      - agumonkey 2y ago
        Fair point, and I'd add that there's a spot above the average where people used to flock to because it felt special and not just random average stuff. That's where society picked stars and new trends, something slightly special, complex, original yet not vulgar.
  - agumonkey 2y ago
    I wouldn't consider schools as a factor, my best guess was a harder industry that required people to know more theory before producing (except youth punk/rock..). Quincy jones had a long career in advanced genre, even bands like the police were trained on sophisticated music. It raised the entry bar higher overall.
DonHopkins 2y ago
To be so supernaturally talented and skilled, but to also be big enough to concede when you're wrong and just shut up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billie_Jean#Production https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billie_Jean#Production Jackson disagreed with the producer, Quincy Jones, about the song. According to some reports, Jones felt it was too weak to be included on Thriller, but Jones has denied this. Jones disliked the demo and did not care for the bassline, and wanted to cut Jackson's 29-second introduction. Jackson, however, insisted that it be kept. According to Jones, he conceded when Jackson said it made him want to dance: "And when Michael Jackson tells you, 'That's what makes me want to dance', well, the rest of us just have to shut up." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi_XLOBDo_Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi_XLOBDo_Y
HocusLocus 2y ago
I still remember my first listen to Off The Wall and Thriller on headphones, Thriller being the ultimate experience. Collaborating with engineer Bruce Swedien, Jones produced a complicated topped-off waveform of a layered masterpiece in which you could hear every discrete vocal and instrument. It became the go-to technique of future generations. https://www.mixonline.com/recording/mix-interview-quincy-jones-365878 https://www.mixonline.com/recording/mix-interview-quincy-jon...

Off The Wall, Thriller, and Bad. What an incredible run for both Quincy Jones and Michael Jackson.

kevin_thibedeau 2y ago

That was his middle stage career. Gems like 'Sinatra at the Sands' are worth a listen for his talented arrangements.

qsi 2y ago
The "It Might As Well Be Swing" album by Frank Sinatra with the Count Basie band was my introduction to Quincy Jones, who did the arrangement. It is one of my favorite albums in Sinatra's discography.

agumonkey 2y ago

It's strange to realize how sophisticated "pop" music was at the time. Lots of beautiful harmonies, violins ..

giraffe_lady 2y ago
I liked pop then and I like pop now, and I liked it the whole time in between, and I don't think you can say pop is less sophisticated now. The conventions of the genre have shifted because of communion with rock, hip hop and electronic dance music. But violins are just an instrument, no more sophisticated or less than any other arrangement choice. Now the complexity is in the rhythmic interactions, and the timbral palette available to producers. The musicality of pop musicians and especially studio performers and producers is just unreal right now.
- agumonkey 2y ago
  Link me some stuff worth listening too, I stopped scanning the recent music releases because most of it (except a few exceptions) felt like soup.
  - giraffe_lady 2y ago
    So, not all but quite a few "radio pop" artists actually have excellent studio albums, from which the radio singles are basically the worst songs. Like ariana grande had an incredible three-album run with dangerous woman, sweetener, thank u next. Dua Lipa's future nostalgia is another one of these, full of popified funk and dancehall grooves. Bass players love that album. So don't write off bad radio pop without giving the album a listen, there's quite a lot of good music hidden in plain sight. Other than that some of my favorites from the last approximate decade in no particular order (in format: album - artist) are froot - marina and the diamonds; I feel alive - TOPS; shabrang - sevdaliza; unfortunately, terror jr - terror jr; take me apart - kelela; somewhere in between - verite; dogviolet - laurel; empathogen - willow; expectations - hayley kiyoko; once twice melody - beach house; the fool - ryn weaver. Pop is hard to define as a genre, particularly it tends to blend into r&b and indie rock so some people might categorize some these differently. And most are "indie pop" but afaict that's just pop by non-famous musicians. That ryn weaver album is probably the best in the list, it's a monster masterpiece that deserves to be more widely known.
    - agumonkey 2y ago
      I'll take a peek, but i'm surprised, I stopped caring (pun slightly intended) about dua liap around future nostalgia. There's some nice bass in it but it's crude. The recent willow single was interesting that's true. Only people that manage to give me a sense of depth were thundercat/knower, benny sings But I still miss some of the subtle harmonics from edits like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVhl896h2NI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVhl896h2NI . There are other studio sessions with isolated vocals which afaik are not made this way anymore ps: ryn makes good pop, colorful, but i don't know, maybe a different approach to voicings, it's missing something psedit: fixed link
      - giraffe_lady 2y ago
        Yeah ryn's raw musicality is unreal but that album is underproduced and doesn't do her justice. I still think it's a masterpiece but the criticism is legit. I was really hoping to hear another from her but I'm not sure what it would be like now, the sound has changed a lot and I'm not sure what she's been up to. If you like knower and thundercat there is a ton of great music that in that intersection of funk, pop, contemporary jazz. I was trying to stick to more "straight pop." Anyway with those guys I don't think the musicianship or sophistication is remotely in dispute.
treebeard901 2y ago
I have been thinking about this some lately. The loss of complexity in main stream music. One of the most popular songs this year is just f# f# g ... f# ... I am sure someone can figure out which song it is. While the music sounds great and sells, my theory is that it comes as a result of losing music classes in many public schools. Over decades it has led to a loss of complexity. Then again, I am probably just old.
- Ardon 2y ago
  I wonder which way the causal arrow goes? I'm confident more complex (and also excellent) music is being made now than ever before so it wouldn't be a supply problem. Could be a demand problem, or a transit problem, maybe. It wouldn't be terribly surprising if it's the audience that has dragged things towards simplicity. Could also be the homogenizing effect of recommendation algorithms that select for mass appeal, a song that everyone likes at an average of 7/10 is selected for way harder than a song that 50% of people like at an average of 9/10.
  - TheOtherHobbes 2y ago
    You really do need gatekeeping and curation in art. Otherwise it regresses to the mean - which is where the money is, but not the danger or surprise.
    - agumonkey 2y ago
      Fair point, and I'd add that there's a spot above the average where people used to flock to because it felt special and not just random average stuff. That's where society picked stars and new trends, something slightly special, complex, original yet not vulgar.
- agumonkey 2y ago
  I wouldn't consider schools as a factor, my best guess was a harder industry that required people to know more theory before producing (except youth punk/rock..). Quincy jones had a long career in advanced genre, even bands like the police were trained on sophisticated music. It raised the entry bar higher overall.

DonHopkins 2y ago

To be so supernaturally talented and skilled, but to also be big enough to concede when you're wrong and just shut up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billie_Jean#Production https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billie_Jean#Production Jackson disagreed with the producer, Quincy Jones, about the song. According to some reports, Jones felt it was too weak to be included on Thriller, but Jones has denied this. Jones disliked the demo and did not care for the bassline, and wanted to cut Jackson's 29-second introduction. Jackson, however, insisted that it be kept. According to Jones, he conceded when Jackson said it made him want to dance: "And when Michael Jackson tells you, 'That's what makes me want to dance', well, the rest of us just have to shut up." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi_XLOBDo_Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi_XLOBDo_Y

HocusLocus 2y ago

I still remember my first listen to Off The Wall and Thriller on headphones, Thriller being the ultimate experience. Collaborating with engineer Bruce Swedien, Jones produced a complicated topped-off waveform of a layered masterpiece in which you could hear every discrete vocal and instrument. It became the go-to technique of future generations. https://www.mixonline.com/recording/mix-interview-quincy-jones-365878 https://www.mixonline.com/recording/mix-interview-quincy-jon...