7 ms·

Illegal immigrants are a small % of total immigrant population in many countries

11 points by therabbithole 2y ago

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
ivandenysov 2y ago
I would be more interested in seeing what % of immigrants entered respective country illegally. At least in Germany there's a huge difference between illegal immigrants and immigrants without a legal status (term used in the article). It is fairly easy to enter Germany illegally and gain legal status afterwards.
- _heimdall 2y ago
  As far as Germany goes, what's the distinction? If you immigrate without legal status, didn't you immigrate illegally? Or do those who get status after enter as a visitor staying legally for less than 6 months? I immigrated from the US to the Netherlands and entered as a visitor, mainly because we had to do all the paperwork in person once we got there. Got lucky too, the immigration service was shut down as part of the pandemic response a week after our papers went through.
davidguetta 2y ago
[flagged]
- _heimdall 2y ago
  Assuming you're in the US, what is your opinion of the Statue of Liberty? Should we test it down as we no longer want the hungry, sick, and poor? Immigration causes financial issues for welfare programs for sure. But you're abandoning how the US became what we are today if you want to gate entry based on merit or similar metrics.
  - davidguetta 2y ago
    I'm not american but I'm not sure you want to live in what was the US at that time in terms of crime statistics. People in a country should be able to chose whether they want or not other people and how much. It's a basic idea. Also i think you are overlooking the impact of literally barbaric cultures and values that some people are briging through their culture / religion. At least the US immigrants had european heritage. Not all cultures blend well unfortunately...
    - _heimdall 2y ago
      > I'm not american but I'm not sure you want to live in what was the US at that time in terms of crime statistics. There's a lot at play when comparing now and then, I don't think its as easy as pegging it fundamentally on immigration laws. Our government was much smaller then. Our legal system was much smaller then. Policing looked much different. We didn't have welfare programs helping those in need. The list goes on and on, pinning crime statistics on immigration impossible. > People in a country should be able to chose whether they want or not other people and how much. It's a basic idea. Maybe, that would depend largely on how much you think the individual matters compared to the collective. Going back to an earlier era with effectively open immigration, our country was driven much more by the rights of the individual than it is today. If that's what most people want there's nothing wrong with that, but the question isn't as simple as people getting to decide who they want to let in.
      - davidguetta 2y ago
        > There's a lot at play when comparing now and then, I don't think its as easy as pegging it fundamentally on immigration laws. Our government was much smaller then. Our legal system was much smaller then. Policing looked much different. We didn't have welfare programs helping those in need. The list goes on and on, pinning crime statistics on immigration impossible. From an external point of view it feels almost ANY US welfare program (starting with education or healthcare for everybody) is terrible compared to the counterpart of Europe ones for example so that's not a good argument for uncontrolled immigration in the US. Then, you'll also see that people is Europe are slowly realizing exactly what I said about some cultures that cannot mix, so maybe the quality of welfare programs have nothing to do with it ? > Maybe, that would depend largely on how much you think the individual matters compared to the collective. Going back to an earlier era with effectively open immigration, our country was driven much more by the rights of the individual than it is today. If that's what most people want there's nothing wrong with that, but the question isn't as simple as people getting to decide who they want to let in. Yeah well indeed when there's not much of a society and you're a new world there's no point to gatekeep, indeed. Once you've reached peak country in economy & some values it thus may be worth trying to preserve the culture that brought you there instead of saying it's "oppression" and it must be "deconstructed" by immigration for example.
workingdog 2y ago
It's still too high. Illegal immigration often ruins the idea of immigration in the minds of the native population.
_heimdall 2y ago
Its oddly refreshing to see the word "immigrant" used here properly. Political debates in the US keep tossing around their term "migrants" as though immigrants are legal and migrants are not. That has nothing to do with it, you can immigrate illegally and you can migrate legally (we have plenty of migrant workers in the US legally every year). Chalk one up for lazy politics and an inept public education system I guess. If immigration is going to be such an important issue people should be taught how it even works in the first place.
miroljub 2y ago
The data in this article is bullshit. For example, in Germany, there are no 15.8 Million immigrants. There are 15.8 M people with an immigration background, which have at least one parent who is an immigrant. Most of them are born in Germany. The actual number of immigrants is much smaller. I don't know where they have a number of 680k illegal immigrants, but it is way too low. That's the number of people that needs to be expedited, but for a reason they are still there. The total number may be much higher once the slow German bureaucracy starts actually tackling the unknown bucket and sorting it in legal and illegal buckets.

11 points by therabbithole 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

I would be more interested in seeing what % of immigrants entered respective country illegally. At least in Germany there's a huge difference between illegal immigrants and immigrants without a legal status (term used in the article). It is fairly easy to enter Germany illegally and gain legal status afterwards.

_heimdall 2y ago
As far as Germany goes, what's the distinction? If you immigrate without legal status, didn't you immigrate illegally? Or do those who get status after enter as a visitor staying legally for less than 6 months? I immigrated from the US to the Netherlands and entered as a visitor, mainly because we had to do all the paperwork in person once we got there. Got lucky too, the immigration service was shut down as part of the pandemic response a week after our papers went through.

davidguetta 2y ago

[flagged]

_heimdall 2y ago
Assuming you're in the US, what is your opinion of the Statue of Liberty? Should we test it down as we no longer want the hungry, sick, and poor? Immigration causes financial issues for welfare programs for sure. But you're abandoning how the US became what we are today if you want to gate entry based on merit or similar metrics.
- davidguetta 2y ago
  I'm not american but I'm not sure you want to live in what was the US at that time in terms of crime statistics. People in a country should be able to chose whether they want or not other people and how much. It's a basic idea. Also i think you are overlooking the impact of literally barbaric cultures and values that some people are briging through their culture / religion. At least the US immigrants had european heritage. Not all cultures blend well unfortunately...
  - _heimdall 2y ago
    > I'm not american but I'm not sure you want to live in what was the US at that time in terms of crime statistics. There's a lot at play when comparing now and then, I don't think its as easy as pegging it fundamentally on immigration laws. Our government was much smaller then. Our legal system was much smaller then. Policing looked much different. We didn't have welfare programs helping those in need. The list goes on and on, pinning crime statistics on immigration impossible. > People in a country should be able to chose whether they want or not other people and how much. It's a basic idea. Maybe, that would depend largely on how much you think the individual matters compared to the collective. Going back to an earlier era with effectively open immigration, our country was driven much more by the rights of the individual than it is today. If that's what most people want there's nothing wrong with that, but the question isn't as simple as people getting to decide who they want to let in.
    - davidguetta 2y ago
      > There's a lot at play when comparing now and then, I don't think its as easy as pegging it fundamentally on immigration laws. Our government was much smaller then. Our legal system was much smaller then. Policing looked much different. We didn't have welfare programs helping those in need. The list goes on and on, pinning crime statistics on immigration impossible. From an external point of view it feels almost ANY US welfare program (starting with education or healthcare for everybody) is terrible compared to the counterpart of Europe ones for example so that's not a good argument for uncontrolled immigration in the US. Then, you'll also see that people is Europe are slowly realizing exactly what I said about some cultures that cannot mix, so maybe the quality of welfare programs have nothing to do with it ? > Maybe, that would depend largely on how much you think the individual matters compared to the collective. Going back to an earlier era with effectively open immigration, our country was driven much more by the rights of the individual than it is today. If that's what most people want there's nothing wrong with that, but the question isn't as simple as people getting to decide who they want to let in. Yeah well indeed when there's not much of a society and you're a new world there's no point to gatekeep, indeed. Once you've reached peak country in economy & some values it thus may be worth trying to preserve the culture that brought you there instead of saying it's "oppression" and it must be "deconstructed" by immigration for example.

workingdog 2y ago

It's still too high. Illegal immigration often ruins the idea of immigration in the minds of the native population.

_heimdall 2y ago

Its oddly refreshing to see the word "immigrant" used here properly. Political debates in the US keep tossing around their term "migrants" as though immigrants are legal and migrants are not. That has nothing to do with it, you can immigrate illegally and you can migrate legally (we have plenty of migrant workers in the US legally every year). Chalk one up for lazy politics and an inept public education system I guess. If immigration is going to be such an important issue people should be taught how it even works in the first place.

miroljub 2y ago

The data in this article is bullshit. For example, in Germany, there are no 15.8 Million immigrants. There are 15.8 M people with an immigration background, which have at least one parent who is an immigrant. Most of them are born in Germany. The actual number of immigrants is much smaller. I don't know where they have a number of 680k illegal immigrants, but it is way too low. That's the number of people that needs to be expedited, but for a reason they are still there. The total number may be much higher once the slow German bureaucracy starts actually tackling the unknown bucket and sorting it in legal and illegal buckets.