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From the WSJ’s reporting on this: > Most employees in the tech union receive pay of more than $100,000, and average compensation, including bonus and restricte
by impish9208 2y ago
From the WSJ’s reporting on this:
> Most employees in the tech union receive pay of more than $100,000, and average compensation, including bonus and restricted stock units, is $190,000, according to a Times spokeswoman. That figure is an average of $40,000 more than members of the Times’s journalist union, she said.
> Times leaders have also bristled at the nature of some of the guild’s requests. The union previously sought a requirement that the company use unscented cleaning supplies and offer a pet bereavement policy that included a leave of up to seven days, though it has since backed down from those demands.
- cab11150904 2y ago[flagged]
- sdenton4 2y agoThe auto workers unions got established when auto work was high paid, high tech work. People deserve to have unions - which is to say, a voice in the terms of their employment - regardless of the size of their paycheck.
- tharmas 2y agoNot all Unions are bad but some Unions are. Same with management. We've lost the art of compromise.
- seanicus 2y agoEhhh, this is the counter-argument from the employer. That $190K seems highly dubious. I, an at-will employee earn ~60% more via benefits... and let me tell you that's definitely not the same as cash. And the pet bereavement et al sounds like bargaining chips (no better proof than them being dropped in the negotiation process.)
- ceejayoz 2y ago> That figure is an average of $40,000 more than members of the Times’s journalist union, she said. The journalist union should push for an increase too, then. NYC cost of living is enormous.
- michaelt 2y agoI don't know about the NYT, but in my country newspapers are fighting for their lives, financially. Newspapers closing down and others laying off staff is a regular occurance. Print newspapers are essentially dead. Online news? Barely anyone pays for that. Online with ads? Reddit/twitter/facebook/youtube pay zero dollars for the content they put ads on. If you're in tech and you want to maximise your salary - a company's gotta have money before they can give it to you. And newspapers don't have money.
- ceejayoz 2y agoThe NYT has money. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/04/business/media/new-york-times-earnings.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/04/business/media/new-york-t... > The company’s adjusted operating profit for the quarter, which ran from July through September, rose 16.1 percent to $104.2 million, from $89.8 million a year before. Overall revenue increased 7 percent to $640.2 million, compared with the same period in 2023. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/07/business/media/new-york-times-earnings.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/07/business/media/new-york-t... > The company’s adjusted operating profit for the quarter, from April through June, rose to $104.7 million from $92.2 million a year before. Overall revenue increased 5.8 percent, to $625.1 million, compared with the same period in 2023.
- michaelt 2y agoProfit of $104.7 million a year. 5800 employees [1]. So a profit of $18k per employee. A $40k wage gap between tech and journalism it'd be nice to close. That's gonna be one difficult negotiation. [1] https://www.nytco.com/ https://www.nytco.com/
- tomjen3 2y agoConsidering the common pay for software devs thats not as high as I expect. The unscented cleaning supplies is a weird request, but it does kinda make sense and the cost should be pretty low - don't know why they removed that requirement.
- hobs 2y agoAs a person whose very sensitive to scents there's an entire world of folks who are debilitated by them! I can often tell if someone was wearing anything but the mere hint of perfume minutes after they've left an area, and anything stronger gives me headaches or worse.
- askafriend 2y agoGreat perspective that I wouldn't have considered. Thanks for sharing!
- whamlastxmas 2y agoI am very allergic to many common fragrances and it makes my life really uncomfortable very frequently. Some of them are worse than others but commercial grade cleaning products are some of the worst. And it’s not just problematic for me to be in the bathroom where they’re used, but sometimes entire sections of the building that are close to the bathrooms. I get immediate physically uncomfortable symptoms and prolonged exposure can actually cause ETD and a resulting debilitating vertigo where I can’t even sit up for five hours and vomit the entire time. It’s not just fragrances that contribute to this but it’s a large part of it The idea that they “bristled” at a union supporting people like me is total shit
- caeril 2y agoYou've been mislead on the "common pay" for software developers by the overemphasis of total compensation from FAANG (partially due to HN bias). Outside of FAANG, most developers earn less than you think in the US, and outside the US, it's even drastically less.
- schwax 2y agoIt's great the union was pushing for unscented cleaning supplies. I have a friend who is very sensitive to scents. She may not be able to work in a typical office again because of it. I'm very sensitive to harsh fluorescent lighting and noisy office environments and get migraines. You can push through for a while but eventually you burn out. We've also realized we're both "mildly" autistic [1] over the last few years, along with quite a few other software engineer friends. The sensory sensitivities fall under that umbrella. Tech has traditionally been more accepting of neurodiversity than other careers, so it's great to see a tech union raising issue like this that don't cost much but make a big difference for anyone affected. [1] Book: Unmasking Autism by Devon Price
- laborcontract 2y agoFrom this article: > The guild said it was asking readers to honor its digital picket line by not playing Times Games products, such as Wordle, and not using the Cooking app. I’m not familiar with digital picket lines, why not ask that people not read via the site? Tying the picket line to Wordle and the cooking app seems to trivialize the importance of the team – Wordle was an acquisition!
- dagw 2y agoMy understanding is that, if you judge by traffic, The New York Times is actually a cooking blog and online gaming platform that dabbles a bit in journalism on the side.
- tootie 2y agoI mean, newspapers used to make all their money on classified ads which is why Craigslist has killed so much local news and Craig Newmark is now donating money to save journalism.
- barryrandall 2y agoPay-per-word classified ads drove sellers to websites that offered better reach for less money.
- laborcontract 2y agoHilarious but I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s true. Upon some reflection, Marcella Hazan’s Tomato Sauce recipe is probably the most that i’ve actively sought the nyt’s content.
- tsunamifury 2y agoLocals newspapers were a grocery shopper and a comic book that dabbled in journalism as well.
- SilasX 2y ago
- cowpig 2y agoLet's put those numbers in perspective: $100k is about $72k after tax[0]. Suppose I want to support a family in NYC. Average cost of living is about $9,000/mo for a family of four[1]. That's $108,000 per year. Or about $36,000 above what I would need to support an average 2-kid family, living paycheck-to-paycheck. So if I want to be able to support a family, 100k is not even close to enough. edit: forgot to add the sources [0] https://www.talent.com/tax-calculator?salary=100000&from=year®ion=New+York https://www.talent.com/tax-calculator?salary=100000&from=yea... [1] https://livingcost.org/cost/united-states/ny/new-york https://livingcost.org/cost/united-states/ny/new-york
- greentxt 2y ago[flagged]
- cowpig 2y agoI guess we disagree on whether unions should fight for enough wages for their workers to support a family.
- IncreasePosts 2y agoShould people with families get paid more in order to support them? Why would a single person need to get paid as much as a person supporting another adult without a job and two children?
- cowpig 2y agoIMO single people should also make more. I just think "can they support a family of 4" is a decent heuristic for whether people are getting paid enough.
- drawkward 2y agoYes. So much of our economy is built on the idea that future people will be able to support and pay for today's economic choices.
- stego-tech 2y agoWhen I see people critique those numbers as being “too high”, or demands for additional compensation “unreasonable”, I can’t help but think those people don’t understand that $100k is very much the new $45k of the 2000s, and has much less purchasing power than the latter did at the time. Truth be told, for the present cost of living in the Northeast in general, you’re looking at a family income of $300k to be “comfortable”, or a single base income of $200k. That’s if you want to buy a new car (of which the bulk cost more than $50k), a starter home that doesn’t need major repairs ($800k+), and still have some money left over to save for retirement; in cities like NYC and Boston, you’re easily looking at $250k single/$400k couple for a “Middle Class” existence. The brutal reality is that everyone who has to work to survive is grossly underpaid relative to the current cost of living. To ignore this fact (or worse, try to compartmentalize it or limit its scope to a reduced “other” category) endangers both the economy and the state.
- _heimdall 2y agoCost of living has gotten really insane today compared to a couple decades ago. Its pretty easy to go to college on loans and rack up $150k in debt for an average 4-year degree. Its easy to spend $35k-$50k on a new car, even 10 year old cars in good shape are $10k-$15k. Housing costs vary a lot more by area, but I think most would agree its extremely expensive these days. The idea that a young family could have $5,000/mo just in debt payments between school, vehicles, and housing is insane to me. That doesn't even account for day to day expenses, children, vacations, etc.
- tzs 2y ago> Its pretty easy to go to college on loans and rack up $150k in debt for an average 4-year degree. It isn't easy for a 4-year degree. To get to that level generally requires law school or medical school debt or an unfunded graduate degree. For 4-year degrees around 80% of students graduate with less than $30k in debt. For public schools only 7% of graduates have debt above $50k. For private nonprofit schools 12% have debt above $50k. For private for-profit schools it is 32%.
- 2y ago
- thinkingtoilet 2y agoPeople will laugh at it, but pet bereavement should absolutely be a thing. The saddest I've ever been in my life was when my dog died. Perhaps seven days is a bit much, but when you go to the bargaining table you don't start with what you want, you start past that point then negotiate down.
- apwell23 2y agoyep same. It hit me harder than some of my human relatives. I had hard time getting out of bed for days.
- fakedang 2y ago[flagged]
- JadeNB 2y ago> I won't laugh at the pet bereavement leave request, but I most certainly will laugh at the ask for unscented cleaning products. What's the point then? The point of cleaning products is to clean, which can be done perfectly well with no scent. If they're just covering up uncleanliness with a pretty scent, then they're not cleaning. Some people have serious allergies to common scents, and some people just find them unpleasant and slightly nauseating.
- thinkingtoilet 2y agoAgreed that is silly. But it is equally silly, and telling in my opinion, that that is what you're focusing on.
- fakedang 2y agoThat's how things work don't they? You tend to focus on which demand seems the most patently absurd one.
- KittenInABox 2y agoUnscented cleaning products in a communal workplace setting makes complete sense to me, tbh. It minimizes the exposure to any sensitivities or allergies that could expose a company to legal liability. e.g. it only takes one poorly-paid cleaner to forget that someone's bathroom has an accessibility policy because they're deeply allergic to the lemon scent in the cleaning product or something.
- Workaccount2 2y agoThe only thing the times has to worry about is whether or not they can get other tech workers in the door to undercut the union. When the union was formed in 2021, tech workers were insanely in demand and carried basically all the chips. But now that that has cooled significantly, and many tech workers are having trouble finding work, the union is in a precarious position of being founded on ideals of 2021, but having to negotiate with the reality of 2024.
- tdeck 2y ago[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- dartos 2y agoThe 2nd quote is kind of funny, but the first one isn’t. Tech generates more money than the Times. It makes sense that the employees should be paid to reflect that. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with high paid workers striking for even higher pay. It’s not like the suits don’t hoard bonuses for themselves.
- reaperducer 2y agoTech generates more money than the Times. It's the journalists that create the content for the tech end. Without them, there would be no Times tech employees.
- piltdownman 2y agoTo reductio ad absurdum, without the advertisers there'd be no journalists. The problem remains that with the advertisers, there cannot be journalism. Little distinguishes much of american mass-media 'journalism' from a ChatGPT precis of a Press Release or Reuters/AP wire. What does is generally in the form of an Op-Ed, and is generally at the behest or bias of a billionaire or their lobbying proxy. In 2024 this has gotten to the point where America's Largest Newspaper chain will not endorse a presidential candidate out of fear. That's 200+ separate publications. https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/29/media/usa-today-gannett-newspapers-endorsement-president/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/29/media/usa-today-gannett-n... Both the advertisers and the journalists rely on the Tech Employees as their core dependency for distribution and scaling factor, and are weighted in compensation accordingly. Much as it ever was - the people selling adspace and doing the logistics of distribution always made more than the people writing copy or typesetting.
- carlosjobim 2y ago> Little distinguishes much of american mass-media 'journalism' from a ChatGPT precis of a Press Release or Reuters/AP wire. The Reuters/AP wire is journalism.
- jkestner 2y agoThey're all in it together. The journalists should strike for everything they want as well!
- fmbb 2y agoWhat’s the point of a comment listing numbers like this? Have you looked at what the owners of the New York Times make and compared that to the average “newspaper owner” in the US?
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- somesortofthing 2y agoJournalist salaries, especially at prestigious piblications, are quite famously set such that only people who can rely on external support to the tune of 5-6 figures a year can become journalists. It makes sense that the journalists union would prioritize things other than salary in bargaining - their W2 job isn't where their money comes from.
- matrix87 2y ago[flagged]