4 ms·

The numbers Trump throws around do not seem to be based on any real economic data or models. They're just more random threats to force backroom deals.

by Hatrix 2y ago

chiefalchemist 2y ago
Well, devil's advocate here, real so called economic experts were instrumental in getting us to the sociopolitical cluster-fucker we're in now. So who do we listen to? Them more? Again? That's textbook insanity. We can't say we're pro-change and then shoot down anything that commits to change. Sure, Trump is likely wrong. But "no don't do THAT" is not actionable. It's not a viable alternative. It's the experts not wznted to stick a pin in the reality they created. When does it stop cause the current sociopolitical environment is not sustainable.
- jqpabc123 2y ago
  No one has ever taxed their way to prosperity. Vote for this discredited economic genius and it will be proven in the most harsh way possible. The best hope for his stated plan is that it is just another lie designed to entice simple minded voters desperate for any change, even a bad one.
  - chiefalchemist 2y ago
    re: "No one has ever taxed their way to prosperity." So again, I'll ask: What should we do then? The status quo is broken. "No, not THAT" is not an actionable solution. Furthermore, I'll add the last time Trump kicked off similar "anti China" economic actions we were assured *by the experts* that complete doom was imminent. That didn't happen. I agree 100%, he's no economic genius. The problem is, nor is anyone else (tho they'd like us to believe otherwise). A similar question I love to asked is: "Ok. He's a schmuck. But how did we get here? And who is responsible and accountable to that?" I *never* get an answer. Why? Because the loudest anti-Trump / pro status quo voices are typically the most responsible for his rise. They're not going to openly admit their guilt so they play the distraction card. The rule of thumb is simple: The Opportunist does not create The Opportunity.
    - jqpabc123 2y ago
      That didn't happen. No? Ever hear of inflation? 25% tariffs on Chinese goods helped promote it. The plan being proposed now is to tariff *everything*. This can only kick inflation into high gear. Considering that the USA imports *a lot*, this will most likely trigger a recession for the world's most successful economy. What should we do then? Doing "anything" is an act of desperation --- and not necessarily better than doing nothing. Not shooting ourselves in the foot for no good reason would be a better start.
      - chiefalchemist 2y ago
        Yes I have. The problem is you haven't heard of the US Federal Reserve and The Fed drastically increasing the money supply during Covid. The Fed's golly-gee where did that inflation come from was gaslighting. Yes, agreed. There are people who feel desperate and want something done. Doing nothing is what got us Trump. How is more of the same going to fix that? Hint: It didn't and it's not. And here we are again faced with the prospect of Trump. The opportunist didn't create the opportunity. Keep that in mind as you look for those who are responsible for all this. What has changed for the better since Trump showed up?
        jqpabc123 2y ago
        There are people who feel desperate and want something done. I'm sorry --- how about a massive new consumption tax? Feel better now? This is the gist of Trump's economic plan. Only an idiot would consider this a "solution". Economic "sabotage" would be a more accurate description.
- AnimalMuppet 2y ago
  First, things are not great, but they're not nearly so bad as you make them sound. Inflation hurt, but it's falling, and interest rates should follow soon. Employment is high. Housing costs are terrible. It's a mixed bag, but it's not the doom that you claim. Second: Even if things are bad, they are not so bad that they can't be made much worse. It's easier to not make a dumb move than it is to make a smart one. We may not know how to make things better, but at least let's not make things worse. "We have to do something, X is something, therefore we have to do X" is extremely poor reasoning. No, if things are bad, we have to do something that will actually help.
  - chiefalchemist 2y ago
    I'm not making them anything. The support for Trump is approx 50%. Those ppl are tired of the gaslighting. I'm not saying anything. I'm just listening. I'm only a messenger.
    - Tainnor 2y ago
      That's a style of discussion that goes nowhere. Either you believe in an argument, then you should be prepared to defend it - or you don't. Saying "I don't actually believe this, but lots of people do, so we should take it seriously" doesn't serve any purpose.
      - chiefalchemist 2y ago
        I'm not making an argument. I'm highlighting facts. Facts that are being down played. For example, "the experts". They got us here, and here isn't sustainable. It's insanity to keep pushing "the experts" when they got us here. Where is their accountability? Where are their fixes? Economic decisions don't exist outside the sociopolitical systems they impact. Economic theory isn't reality. Again. Not my opinion. Just the facts mamam.
        Tainnor 2y ago
        None of what you wrote is covered under any reasonable definition of "facts". It's literally all just your opinion.
- rsynnott 2y ago
  I'm... kind of struggling here. Is your argument "economists are bad, so just do the thing that no economist would suggest doing; it must be good" or something? Like, that doesn't make a huge amount of sense.
  - chiefalchemist 2y ago
    My arguement is simple... The current sociopolitical system is not sustainable. It was "the experts" who helped get us here. To counter ideas about change in the status quo with "the experts..." is both naive and insanity. "No... Because the experts..." is weak at best. "No... But what might help correct things..." is all that should be acceptable. The arc of my point is, ppl completely discount how we got here. No retros. Just repeating the same foolishness, because it's comfortable (?). That comfort isn't helping. It's time to get comfortable with being uncomfortable.

The numbers Trump throws around do not seem to be based on any real economic data or models. They're just more random threats to force backroom deals.

by Hatrix 2y ago

The numbers Trump throws around do not seem to be based on any real economic data or models. They're just more random threats to force backroom deals.

chiefalchemist 2y ago

Well, devil's advocate here, real so called economic experts were instrumental in getting us to the sociopolitical cluster-fucker we're in now. So who do we listen to? Them more? Again? That's textbook insanity. We can't say we're pro-change and then shoot down anything that commits to change. Sure, Trump is likely wrong. But "no don't do THAT" is not actionable. It's not a viable alternative. It's the experts not wznted to stick a pin in the reality they created. When does it stop cause the current sociopolitical environment is not sustainable.

jqpabc123 2y ago
No one has ever taxed their way to prosperity. Vote for this discredited economic genius and it will be proven in the most harsh way possible. The best hope for his stated plan is that it is just another lie designed to entice simple minded voters desperate for any change, even a bad one.
- chiefalchemist 2y ago
  re: "No one has ever taxed their way to prosperity." So again, I'll ask: What should we do then? The status quo is broken. "No, not THAT" is not an actionable solution. Furthermore, I'll add the last time Trump kicked off similar "anti China" economic actions we were assured *by the experts* that complete doom was imminent. That didn't happen. I agree 100%, he's no economic genius. The problem is, nor is anyone else (tho they'd like us to believe otherwise). A similar question I love to asked is: "Ok. He's a schmuck. But how did we get here? And who is responsible and accountable to that?" I *never* get an answer. Why? Because the loudest anti-Trump / pro status quo voices are typically the most responsible for his rise. They're not going to openly admit their guilt so they play the distraction card. The rule of thumb is simple: The Opportunist does not create The Opportunity.
  - jqpabc123 2y ago
    That didn't happen. No? Ever hear of inflation? 25% tariffs on Chinese goods helped promote it. The plan being proposed now is to tariff *everything*. This can only kick inflation into high gear. Considering that the USA imports *a lot*, this will most likely trigger a recession for the world's most successful economy. What should we do then? Doing "anything" is an act of desperation --- and not necessarily better than doing nothing. Not shooting ourselves in the foot for no good reason would be a better start.
    - chiefalchemist 2y ago
      Yes I have. The problem is you haven't heard of the US Federal Reserve and The Fed drastically increasing the money supply during Covid. The Fed's golly-gee where did that inflation come from was gaslighting. Yes, agreed. There are people who feel desperate and want something done. Doing nothing is what got us Trump. How is more of the same going to fix that? Hint: It didn't and it's not. And here we are again faced with the prospect of Trump. The opportunist didn't create the opportunity. Keep that in mind as you look for those who are responsible for all this. What has changed for the better since Trump showed up?
      - jqpabc123 2y ago
        There are people who feel desperate and want something done. I'm sorry --- how about a massive new consumption tax? Feel better now? This is the gist of Trump's economic plan. Only an idiot would consider this a "solution". Economic "sabotage" would be a more accurate description.
AnimalMuppet 2y ago
First, things are not great, but they're not nearly so bad as you make them sound. Inflation hurt, but it's falling, and interest rates should follow soon. Employment is high. Housing costs are terrible. It's a mixed bag, but it's not the doom that you claim. Second: Even if things are bad, they are not so bad that they can't be made much worse. It's easier to not make a dumb move than it is to make a smart one. We may not know how to make things better, but at least let's not make things worse. "We have to do something, X is something, therefore we have to do X" is extremely poor reasoning. No, if things are bad, we have to do something that will actually help.
- chiefalchemist 2y ago
  I'm not making them anything. The support for Trump is approx 50%. Those ppl are tired of the gaslighting. I'm not saying anything. I'm just listening. I'm only a messenger.
  - Tainnor 2y ago
    That's a style of discussion that goes nowhere. Either you believe in an argument, then you should be prepared to defend it - or you don't. Saying "I don't actually believe this, but lots of people do, so we should take it seriously" doesn't serve any purpose.
    - chiefalchemist 2y ago
      I'm not making an argument. I'm highlighting facts. Facts that are being down played. For example, "the experts". They got us here, and here isn't sustainable. It's insanity to keep pushing "the experts" when they got us here. Where is their accountability? Where are their fixes? Economic decisions don't exist outside the sociopolitical systems they impact. Economic theory isn't reality. Again. Not my opinion. Just the facts mamam.
      - Tainnor 2y ago
        None of what you wrote is covered under any reasonable definition of "facts". It's literally all just your opinion.
rsynnott 2y ago
I'm... kind of struggling here. Is your argument "economists are bad, so just do the thing that no economist would suggest doing; it must be good" or something? Like, that doesn't make a huge amount of sense.
- chiefalchemist 2y ago
  My arguement is simple... The current sociopolitical system is not sustainable. It was "the experts" who helped get us here. To counter ideas about change in the status quo with "the experts..." is both naive and insanity. "No... Because the experts..." is weak at best. "No... But what might help correct things..." is all that should be acceptable. The arc of my point is, ppl completely discount how we got here. No retros. Just repeating the same foolishness, because it's comfortable (?). That comfort isn't helping. It's time to get comfortable with being uncomfortable.