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This reminds me of an anarchist article I recently read against voting. https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/william-gillis-the-case-against-voting https://

This reminds me of an anarchist article I recently read against voting. https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/william-gillis-the-case-against-voting https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/william-gillis-the-c... > The argument for voting is very Kantian: “act so that if everyone acted so…” and “if no literally one voted then voting would matter again” but if literally no one voted the government wouldn’t maintain legitimacy. And in any case this is not an actual causality. When you vote you don’t magically cause everyone else like you to vote, you are a distinct agent with distinct internal thoughts. Your individual actions have only very weak externalities beyond the direct consequences of your choice/vote. > Unfortunately the delusional thinking behind voting crops up in leftist inclinations in general. They want to build giant organizations, giant armies, with individuals all acting in low return-on-investment ways, in hopes of aggregate impact. They don’t search for opportunities of high impact individual direct action. I was getting into an argument with some people who were yelling at me for voting third party in the USA federal election. Because I'm a Texas voter it's my fault the state won't turn blue. "If all Texas non voters voted, and if all third party voters voted democrat, the state would turn blue." And if only people would just stop committing crime, if only people would just not steal from their employees, if only people would just Do The Right Thing...

pixelatedindex 2y ago
Thanks for the link. As someone who feels disenfranchised with a countercultural thread running through, a lot of it resonated with me. I do tend to vote third party as well (maybe not this election given the state of the GOP) — after all, it’s your vote, why give it to someone you don’t agree with? Though I will say that if you didn’t vote, then you don’t get to complain about the system because after all by not voting you’re rejecting a core tenet of the system. I gotta read more things out of this library, this is fun to noodle on.
- SllX 2y ago
  > Though I will say that if you didn’t vote, then you don’t get to complain about the system because after all by not voting you’re rejecting a core tenet of the system. I gotta read more things out of this library, this is fun to noodle on. As a previous water-carrier for this form of “if you don’t vote you don’t get to complain” propaganda, it’s crap. If there isn’t one single person you want to vote for on the ballot, you’re fully entitled to not vote and complain loudly about it. Making the choice to not exercise the one right does not preclude anyone’s use of the other.
  - pixelatedindex 2y ago
    Of course, you can complain loudly about who’s on the ballot. But you don’t get to complain about the outcome of the election because you decided to opt out.
    - SllX 2y ago
      Nah. You can opt out and complain about the outcome too. That’s my point. Not exercising the one does not preclude the other, despite what wannabe gatekeepers may declare otherwise.
      - pixelatedindex 2y ago
        Sure, if you’re active in local government / community. To rephrase, what I meant was you can’t complain if you don’t partake at all because then you’re offering no solution or doing anything to make things better.
        scarecrowbob 2y ago
        I mean, if you're not in a military committing atrocities, clearly you shouldn't have any voice in saying if that military should commit atrocities- because then you’re offering no solution or doing anything to make things better. Makes perfect sense to me. /s
    - komali2 2y ago
      > But you don’t get to complain about the outcome of the election because you decided to opt out. Why not?
  - tonyedgecombe 2y ago
    The thing to do is spoil your ballot. Otherwise people will think you are being lazy (and they will probably be right in most cases).
    - SllX 2y ago
- ddingus 2y ago
  Comment below not intended as direct rebuttal to parent comment. It is just a relevant riff on the tired if you don't vote, don't complain BS. Soap box mode = 1 Yes you do get to complain same as anyone does whether you or anyone voted or not. Never let anyone tell you otherwise. In the US, voting is not mandatory. Casting voting as a condition of redressing ones grievances with government is actually just a psyops version of manufactured consent. If you are inclined to consent, and you feel a vote is worth casting, by all means vote! Maybe you think the whole thing lacks legitimacy? And you want to vote indie or third party or maybe even participate in ratfucking by voting for the very worst candidate a given party could get stuck with? By all means vote. Otherwise you are not required to vote and not voting is just fine. You remain a citizen. The Constitution still applies and all that stuff we know and expect is exactly the same whether we vote or not. Encouraging others to vote for many other reasons is fine too. Don't get me wrong there. I am very specifically calling out the idea of ones participation in this US society being predicated on a vote. That is just not true, and I really dislike advocacy rooted in falsehoods like this kind of advocacy always is. Soap box mode = 0 Maybe I will take a look at this library myself!
grahamj 2y ago
Deciding not to murder and not to steal have measurable real-world effects. Voting in a way that results in no change does not. Voting on principle only works when you have proportional representation. You should vote in a way that moves the needle the way you want it to move.
pixl97 2y ago
Anarchist: "If everyone would just stop forming governments" >but if literally no one voted the government wouldn’t maintain legitimacy This is why no one takes anarchists seriously. Now, the problem is not voting for first parties. It's lack of mandatory voting, and FPTP voting. Change it to ranked choice and suddenly third party votes wouldn't be wasted votes.

pixelatedindex 2y ago

Thanks for the link. As someone who feels disenfranchised with a countercultural thread running through, a lot of it resonated with me. I do tend to vote third party as well (maybe not this election given the state of the GOP) — after all, it’s your vote, why give it to someone you don’t agree with? Though I will say that if you didn’t vote, then you don’t get to complain about the system because after all by not voting you’re rejecting a core tenet of the system. I gotta read more things out of this library, this is fun to noodle on.

SllX 2y ago
> Though I will say that if you didn’t vote, then you don’t get to complain about the system because after all by not voting you’re rejecting a core tenet of the system. I gotta read more things out of this library, this is fun to noodle on. As a previous water-carrier for this form of “if you don’t vote you don’t get to complain” propaganda, it’s crap. If there isn’t one single person you want to vote for on the ballot, you’re fully entitled to not vote and complain loudly about it. Making the choice to not exercise the one right does not preclude anyone’s use of the other.
- pixelatedindex 2y ago
  Of course, you can complain loudly about who’s on the ballot. But you don’t get to complain about the outcome of the election because you decided to opt out.
  - SllX 2y ago
    Nah. You can opt out and complain about the outcome too. That’s my point. Not exercising the one does not preclude the other, despite what wannabe gatekeepers may declare otherwise.
    - pixelatedindex 2y ago
      Sure, if you’re active in local government / community. To rephrase, what I meant was you can’t complain if you don’t partake at all because then you’re offering no solution or doing anything to make things better.
      - scarecrowbob 2y ago
        I mean, if you're not in a military committing atrocities, clearly you shouldn't have any voice in saying if that military should commit atrocities- because then you’re offering no solution or doing anything to make things better. Makes perfect sense to me. /s
  - komali2 2y ago
    > But you don’t get to complain about the outcome of the election because you decided to opt out. Why not?
- tonyedgecombe 2y ago
  The thing to do is spoil your ballot. Otherwise people will think you are being lazy (and they will probably be right in most cases).
  - SllX 2y ago
ddingus 2y ago
Comment below not intended as direct rebuttal to parent comment. It is just a relevant riff on the tired if you don't vote, don't complain BS. Soap box mode = 1 Yes you do get to complain same as anyone does whether you or anyone voted or not. Never let anyone tell you otherwise. In the US, voting is not mandatory. Casting voting as a condition of redressing ones grievances with government is actually just a psyops version of manufactured consent. If you are inclined to consent, and you feel a vote is worth casting, by all means vote! Maybe you think the whole thing lacks legitimacy? And you want to vote indie or third party or maybe even participate in ratfucking by voting for the very worst candidate a given party could get stuck with? By all means vote. Otherwise you are not required to vote and not voting is just fine. You remain a citizen. The Constitution still applies and all that stuff we know and expect is exactly the same whether we vote or not. Encouraging others to vote for many other reasons is fine too. Don't get me wrong there. I am very specifically calling out the idea of ones participation in this US society being predicated on a vote. That is just not true, and I really dislike advocacy rooted in falsehoods like this kind of advocacy always is. Soap box mode = 0 Maybe I will take a look at this library myself!

grahamj 2y ago

Deciding not to murder and not to steal have measurable real-world effects. Voting in a way that results in no change does not. Voting on principle only works when you have proportional representation. You should vote in a way that moves the needle the way you want it to move.

pixl97 2y ago

Anarchist: "If everyone would just stop forming governments" >but if literally no one voted the government wouldn’t maintain legitimacy This is why no one takes anarchists seriously. Now, the problem is not voting for first parties. It's lack of mandatory voting, and FPTP voting. Change it to ranked choice and suddenly third party votes wouldn't be wasted votes.