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Caltech's Honor Code is simply: "No member of the Caltech community shall take unfair advantage of any other member of the Caltech community." - https://deans

Caltech's Honor Code is simply: "No member of the Caltech community shall take unfair advantage of any other member of the Caltech community." - https://deans.caltech.edu/HonorCode https://deans.caltech.edu/HonorCode

JadeNB 2y ago
> "No member of the Caltech community shall take unfair advantage of any other member of the Caltech community." That's great, but I wonder why not just: > "No member of the Caltech community shall take unfair advantage of any other person."
- throwaway313373 2y ago
  If you insist on following an honor code while competing against people who are ready to take an unfair advantage of you, you lose.
  - JadeNB 2y ago
    > If you insist on following an honor code while competing against people who are ready to take an unfair advantage of you, you lose. "Unfair" is in there. If you are competing against a person who will pull out all the stops against you, then there is nothing unfair about pulling out all the stops against them.
    - earleybird 2y ago
      So, tit-for-tat?
      - JadeNB 2y ago
        > So, tit-for-tat? That's a reasonable reading, but I think that there is a difference between competition and punishment. In the heat of the competition, I think I am comfortable with the idea that it is permissible to meet the fierceness of your competitor with equal ferocity. If afterwards someone is found to have exceeded their remit and punishment needs to be dealt, then I think that should be governed by a separate ethical principle.
    - euroderf 2y ago
      War crimes have entered the chat.
      - JadeNB 2y ago
        > War crimes have entered the chat. Good point, but I believe war crimes mainly come when you substitute ‘a people’ for ‘a person’ in: > "Unfair" is in there. If you are competing against a person who will pull out all the stops against you, then there is nothing unfair about pulling out all the stops against them. But I did specifically mean a person, just one. (I also was envisioning, like, struggling for top spot in a class, not struggling to take San Juan Hill. But I'm not immediately sure I can sign on to an ethical principle that says that you are not entitled to respond to one specific competitor with as much fierceness as they bring to the competition, even when that competition becomes deadly.)
        euroderf 2y ago
        All good points. So how about the shifting alliances and goals of Squid Game ?
        JadeNB 2y ago
        > So how about the shifting alliances and goals of Squid Game ? I couldn't comment, since I haven't seen it, but I think the mandate of fairness makes sense even in the presence of shifting goals, and probably governs the extent to which it's reasonable to switch alliances.
  - eviks 2y ago
    So nothing would change since some Caltech members are also ready
    - onionisafruit 2y ago
      How dare you suggest that?
- nurettin 2y ago
  Perhaps the reason we have tribalism is because Ethics Doesn't Scale.
dataflow 2y ago
Does this cover e.g. helping people in another class cheat?
- ad8e 2y ago
  Yes. At Caltech, you'd be socially ostracized by your friends if people knew you were cheating, or helping another person cheat.
  - dataflow 2y ago
    That wasn't really my question. I was asking if the person helping other people in another class cheat would be violating the honor code. Not whether your friends would ostracize you if they find out you're cheating.
    - cottsak 2y ago
      If you can't see that "helping other people in another class cheat" is violating the honour code then you might benefit from taking the time to do so. > Failure to realize the consequences of a course of action does not justify it. https://deans.caltech.edu/documents/24878/Honor_Code_Handbook.pdf https://deans.caltech.edu/documents/24878/Honor_Code_Handboo...
      - dataflow 2y ago
        > If you can't see that "helping other people in another class cheat" is violating the honour code then you might benefit from taking the time to do so. I did, and I didn't see how. If Alice is helping Bob cheat, Bob is the one taking unfair advantage of others, not Alice. For all you know, Alice could be offering to help everyone cheat. It's not like I'm saying something outlandish here. There's a reason most places have specific rules prohibiting assisting others with their violation. Even MIT goes out of its way to specifically call out "Facilitating Academic Dishonesty". [1] [1] https://integrity.mit.edu/handbook/academic-integrity-mit/what-academic-integrity https://integrity.mit.edu/handbook/academic-integrity-mit/wh...

JadeNB 2y ago

> "No member of the Caltech community shall take unfair advantage of any other member of the Caltech community." That's great, but I wonder why not just: > "No member of the Caltech community shall take unfair advantage of any other person."

throwaway313373 2y ago
If you insist on following an honor code while competing against people who are ready to take an unfair advantage of you, you lose.
- JadeNB 2y ago
  > If you insist on following an honor code while competing against people who are ready to take an unfair advantage of you, you lose. "Unfair" is in there. If you are competing against a person who will pull out all the stops against you, then there is nothing unfair about pulling out all the stops against them.
  - earleybird 2y ago
    So, tit-for-tat?
    - JadeNB 2y ago
      > So, tit-for-tat? That's a reasonable reading, but I think that there is a difference between competition and punishment. In the heat of the competition, I think I am comfortable with the idea that it is permissible to meet the fierceness of your competitor with equal ferocity. If afterwards someone is found to have exceeded their remit and punishment needs to be dealt, then I think that should be governed by a separate ethical principle.
  - euroderf 2y ago
    War crimes have entered the chat.
    - JadeNB 2y ago
      > War crimes have entered the chat. Good point, but I believe war crimes mainly come when you substitute ‘a people’ for ‘a person’ in: > "Unfair" is in there. If you are competing against a person who will pull out all the stops against you, then there is nothing unfair about pulling out all the stops against them. But I did specifically mean a person, just one. (I also was envisioning, like, struggling for top spot in a class, not struggling to take San Juan Hill. But I'm not immediately sure I can sign on to an ethical principle that says that you are not entitled to respond to one specific competitor with as much fierceness as they bring to the competition, even when that competition becomes deadly.)
      - euroderf 2y ago
        All good points. So how about the shifting alliances and goals of Squid Game ?
        JadeNB 2y ago
        > So how about the shifting alliances and goals of Squid Game ? I couldn't comment, since I haven't seen it, but I think the mandate of fairness makes sense even in the presence of shifting goals, and probably governs the extent to which it's reasonable to switch alliances.
- eviks 2y ago
  So nothing would change since some Caltech members are also ready
  - onionisafruit 2y ago
    How dare you suggest that?
nurettin 2y ago
Perhaps the reason we have tribalism is because Ethics Doesn't Scale.

dataflow 2y ago

Does this cover e.g. helping people in another class cheat?

ad8e 2y ago
Yes. At Caltech, you'd be socially ostracized by your friends if people knew you were cheating, or helping another person cheat.
- dataflow 2y ago
  That wasn't really my question. I was asking if the person helping other people in another class cheat would be violating the honor code. Not whether your friends would ostracize you if they find out you're cheating.
  - cottsak 2y ago
    If you can't see that "helping other people in another class cheat" is violating the honour code then you might benefit from taking the time to do so. > Failure to realize the consequences of a course of action does not justify it. https://deans.caltech.edu/documents/24878/Honor_Code_Handbook.pdf https://deans.caltech.edu/documents/24878/Honor_Code_Handboo...
    - dataflow 2y ago
      > If you can't see that "helping other people in another class cheat" is violating the honour code then you might benefit from taking the time to do so. I did, and I didn't see how. If Alice is helping Bob cheat, Bob is the one taking unfair advantage of others, not Alice. For all you know, Alice could be offering to help everyone cheat. It's not like I'm saying something outlandish here. There's a reason most places have specific rules prohibiting assisting others with their violation. Even MIT goes out of its way to specifically call out "Facilitating Academic Dishonesty". [1] [1] https://integrity.mit.edu/handbook/academic-integrity-mit/what-academic-integrity https://integrity.mit.edu/handbook/academic-integrity-mit/wh...