3 ms·

The Saga of a Celebrated Scientist – and His Rodent Dystopia

30 points by Petiver 2y ago

pvg 2y ago
https://archive.is/u1BQo https://archive.is/u1BQo
FrustratedMonky 2y ago
Would love to see this repeated. This is divisive, and so many arguments spawned. It would be good to replicate it, just to put down some of the naysayers that quibble over a point or two saying it was staged or influenced. And, to gain more knowledge about the causes and effects. We have more information today, and more data gathering. Would be good to do this study again in a modern lab. Though not sure this type of experiment would be allowed today. Thus the problem. Some of the more well known studies that had a big impact on our way of thinking, aren't even allowed to be done today.
- nemo 2y ago
  >It would be good to replicate it, just to put down some of the naysayers that quibble over a point or two saying it was staged or influenced. No, that is not why it would be good to attempt to replicate. Shutting people down isn't the helpful part, but rather shedding light on the truth with evidence is the positive. There's many strong reasons to consider the study was flawed (mentioned in the article and readily discoverable online), for the record, and the author of the paper's got all the classic signs of a crank, so skepticism would be healthy in this case, and shutting down skeptics would be very foolish.
  - FrustratedMonky 2y ago
    "And, to gain more knowledge about the causes and effects. We have more information today, and more data gathering. Would be good to do this study again in a modern lab." Yes, I did mention 'shedding light with evidence' as a positive thing. And yes, read article and many others. I don't think the flaws were as 'strong' as you are implying, hence, yes, would be good to replicate to prevent the arguments for dismissing it because there were 'some' flaws. Treat it like other studies. It was a first attempt, there were some interesting results, but also some 'flaws', hence, lets replicate and iron out the problems and see if we get some additional interesting results.
gojomo 2y ago
Gwern's deep dive into Calhoun's scholarship suggests taking his "results", & popular/stylized glosses thereof, with some pretty big grains of salt - in line with the fall from academic prominence described in later parts of this article. Gwern's abstract: > Did John Calhoun’s 1960s Mouse Utopia really show that animal (and human) populations will expand to arbitrary densities, creating socially-driven pathology and collapse? Reasons for doubt. https://gwern.net/mouse-utopia https://gwern.net/mouse-utopia
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
swayvil 2y ago
There is a taboo against constraining reproduction. Legally, medically or whatever. Which is unreasonable of course, given that reproduction is arguably more destructive than bombs. If you wanted to dial-down our incessant breeding without getting lynched, how would you do it?
- moomin 2y ago
  Women’s education and women’s rights. I don’t personally think we have an overpopulation problem, but the above are proven to reduce birth rates in an entirely non-coercive manner, as well as being a good thing in their own right.
  - swayvil 2y ago
    I was thinking something a little more sure-fire and scifi, but yes, that's a kind way to do it.
  - Brybry 2y ago
    And possibly most importantly: women's wage employment.[1] [1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8295801/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8295801/
- AlgorithmicTime 2y ago
  [dead]
- idunnoman1222 2y ago
  Our what?
- fwip 2y ago
  I think you'll find that many people find it both reasonable and desirable to preserve reproductive rights, despite your casual "of course."
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
crescit_eundo 2y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
iamleppert 2y ago
A rat is an intelligent creature but also lives in filth.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
dang 2y ago
Related. Others? Two new books on John Calhoun and his rodent experiments - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41698823 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41698823 - Sept 2024 (59 comments) Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell? (2022) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40910792 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40910792 - July 2024 (57 comments) How 1960s Mouse Utopias Led to Grim Predictions for Future of Humanity (2015) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40001884 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40001884 - April 2024 (1 comment) Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell? (2022) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36214486 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36214486 - June 2023 (1 comment) Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31905218 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31905218 - June 2022 (163 comments) 1960s Mouse Utopias Led to Grim Predictions for Future of Humanity (2015) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28572253 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28572253 - Sept 2021 (49 comments) The Behavioral Sink (2011) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22649914 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22649914 - March 2020 (4 comments) What Was the Mouse Utopia? (2017) [video] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21366270 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21366270 - Oct 2019 (6 comments) The Doomed Mouse Utopia That Inspired the 'Rats of NIMH' - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12504271 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12504271 - Sept 2016 (103 comments)

30 points by Petiver 2y ago

pvg 2y ago

https://archive.is/u1BQo https://archive.is/u1BQo

Would love to see this repeated. This is divisive, and so many arguments spawned. It would be good to replicate it, just to put down some of the naysayers that quibble over a point or two saying it was staged or influenced. And, to gain more knowledge about the causes and effects. We have more information today, and more data gathering. Would be good to do this study again in a modern lab. Though not sure this type of experiment would be allowed today. Thus the problem. Some of the more well known studies that had a big impact on our way of thinking, aren't even allowed to be done today.

nemo 2y ago
>It would be good to replicate it, just to put down some of the naysayers that quibble over a point or two saying it was staged or influenced. No, that is not why it would be good to attempt to replicate. Shutting people down isn't the helpful part, but rather shedding light on the truth with evidence is the positive. There's many strong reasons to consider the study was flawed (mentioned in the article and readily discoverable online), for the record, and the author of the paper's got all the classic signs of a crank, so skepticism would be healthy in this case, and shutting down skeptics would be very foolish.
- FrustratedMonky 2y ago
  "And, to gain more knowledge about the causes and effects. We have more information today, and more data gathering. Would be good to do this study again in a modern lab." Yes, I did mention 'shedding light with evidence' as a positive thing. And yes, read article and many others. I don't think the flaws were as 'strong' as you are implying, hence, yes, would be good to replicate to prevent the arguments for dismissing it because there were 'some' flaws. Treat it like other studies. It was a first attempt, there were some interesting results, but also some 'flaws', hence, lets replicate and iron out the problems and see if we get some additional interesting results.

gojomo 2y ago

Gwern's deep dive into Calhoun's scholarship suggests taking his "results", & popular/stylized glosses thereof, with some pretty big grains of salt - in line with the fall from academic prominence described in later parts of this article. Gwern's abstract: > Did John Calhoun’s 1960s Mouse Utopia really show that animal (and human) populations will expand to arbitrary densities, creating socially-driven pathology and collapse? Reasons for doubt. https://gwern.net/mouse-utopia https://gwern.net/mouse-utopia

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

swayvil 2y ago

There is a taboo against constraining reproduction. Legally, medically or whatever. Which is unreasonable of course, given that reproduction is arguably more destructive than bombs. If you wanted to dial-down our incessant breeding without getting lynched, how would you do it?

moomin 2y ago
Women’s education and women’s rights. I don’t personally think we have an overpopulation problem, but the above are proven to reduce birth rates in an entirely non-coercive manner, as well as being a good thing in their own right.
- swayvil 2y ago
  I was thinking something a little more sure-fire and scifi, but yes, that's a kind way to do it.
- Brybry 2y ago
  And possibly most importantly: women's wage employment.[1] [1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8295801/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8295801/
AlgorithmicTime 2y ago
[dead]
idunnoman1222 2y ago
Our what?
fwip 2y ago
I think you'll find that many people find it both reasonable and desirable to preserve reproductive rights, despite your casual "of course."
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

crescit_eundo 2y ago

[flagged]

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

iamleppert 2y ago

A rat is an intelligent creature but also lives in filth.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

dang 2y ago

Related. Others? Two new books on John Calhoun and his rodent experiments - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41698823 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41698823 - Sept 2024 (59 comments) Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell? (2022) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40910792 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40910792 - July 2024 (57 comments) How 1960s Mouse Utopias Led to Grim Predictions for Future of Humanity (2015) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40001884 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40001884 - April 2024 (1 comment) Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell? (2022) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36214486 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36214486 - June 2023 (1 comment) Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31905218 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31905218 - June 2022 (163 comments) 1960s Mouse Utopias Led to Grim Predictions for Future of Humanity (2015) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28572253 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28572253 - Sept 2021 (49 comments) The Behavioral Sink (2011) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22649914 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22649914 - March 2020 (4 comments) What Was the Mouse Utopia? (2017) [video] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21366270 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21366270 - Oct 2019 (6 comments) The Doomed Mouse Utopia That Inspired the 'Rats of NIMH' - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12504271 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12504271 - Sept 2016 (103 comments)