4 ms·

Perhaps there were multiple iterations of the Garmin Edge 530, and we're talking about two different interfaces, but this is the process for zooming and panning

Perhaps there were multiple iterations of the Garmin Edge 530, and we're talking about two different interfaces, but this is the process for zooming and panning the map on my Edge 530: From the map screen, to change zoom, hold a button until a +/- appears next to other buttons. Use those other buttons to zoom in or out. To pan up or down, hold that same button again, until up/down arrows appear next to the other buttons. Use those other buttons to pan up or down. To pan left or right, repeat this process once more. The entire value proposition of a bike mounted map is to be able to navigate without stopping to use your phone. But if the interface to adjust the map is this cumbersome, stopping to look at a phone is the smart move, never mind the better user experience.

II2II 2y ago
> The rise of the touchscreens are an accident. Because MBAs believe iPhone == touch == good. Which they are, given the application. It also goes beyond size and cost. How long will those tactile buttons last, particularly given that the device is meant to be used frequently and is frequently stuffed into a pocket? Don't get me wrong. I have an ereader with buttons because I like buttons. Yet those buttons are not going to endure the same amount of abuse as they would on a phone.
- TeMPOraL 2y ago
  > How long will those tactile buttons last, particularly given that the device is meant to be used frequently and is frequently stuffed into a pocket? Decades. Which I guess is too much for a world that's driven by "value engineering". I mean, we actually have hard data for this. "Dumb phones" (even those that would run J2ME and had apps and stuff) can easily last for decades, and their buttons work fine after 5+ years of intensive use[0]. In contrast, it's rare to find someone whose smartphone lasted more than a year without getting its screen cracked, or three years without at least one screen replacement job. -- [0] - I would know - I graduated high school around when the first iPhone was released. If you weren't of similar age at that time, then believe me when I say it: there is no tougher test for durability of a phone keyboard than having been used by a teenager back then. There was no Messenger or WhatsApp, phone calls were expensive, and videocalls were the thing for super rich, so all the friendships and romance of that age meant texting 24/7, hammering the shit out of the keyboard, day in, day out, for years. Never once heard of anyone's keyboard breaking under the load.
  - eurleif 2y ago
    In your personal experience, does no one use phone cases or what?
    - TeMPOraL 2y ago
      Of course everyone is using phone cases - without them, hardly any smartphone would last a month without needing a screen replacement. (It was better a decade ago, when smartphones were still thick and made of hard plastic. Now that they're all thin and metal, they're too slippery to handle safely.)
      - oblio 2y ago
        I'm not using a phone case, never have. You can have a smartphone for many years if you don't mind micro-scratches. Just don't drop it too often from too high up.
    - ho_schi 2y ago
      This is outsourcing a problem solution to the user. And the covers are a mere workaround. * Shall not be needed for a well designed device. * Covers are ugly. * Make devices even bigger than they are already. * Don’t protect against high forces. Don’t get me wrong. A cover reduces the risks. My phone is alive despite I don’t use one but that is luck (and some care). Manufacturers get away with weird design decisions. * Hard (fragile) screens. Somewhat okay? * Camera lenses extending out of device body. * Camera bump extending out of device body. * Glued sealant instead of replaceable sealing rubber (Apple *does not* guarantee that the iPhone survives water - the glued sealant ages). * Glas backside to make it more fragile. Which improves Qi-Charging needed for metal bodies. Which wouldn’t be needed with polymers bodies. And then there is the Nokia 5110. Surfing everything except water. And the next gen? Nokia built the antenna inside because they improved it. The didn’t sold „more is better“. Nokia improved the device itself :)
  - II2II 2y ago
    Feature phones were entirely different beasts. Screens were typically smaller, and much better protected (either with a platic window covering the screen or by the keyboard folding over the screen, which also protected the buttons). Likewise, the buttons tended to be much better protected (either when folded closed, or by having a keyboard on a slider). On top of that, they were very user hostile. Consider your texting example. Between cost and size, most people were repeatedly bashing each key on a numeric keypad to get a single letter. Few phones had touch screens (the screens were too small for them to be practical), so navigating through options was considerably more difficult. Oh, I know that alternatives existed. Complete keyboards. Larger screens (but by no means large by current standards) with touch input complimenting the keyboard. I had one of them. Yet it was nothing compared to what we have today, and I doubt that we could have what we have today with what we had then (buttons!) without seriously compromising the size of the device or the durability of those buttons.
- justinclift 2y ago
  > How long will those tactile buttons last Button manufacturers rate their products for this kind of thing. ie. "10k cycles" (not that high), "1M cycles" (better), etc. So it really depends upon the device manufacturer to pick something appropriate. Random examples: • https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/push-button-switches/1336473 https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/push-button-switches/1336473 Datasheet for that has 10k cycles: https://docs.rs-online.com/512f/0900766b8137f3b1.pdf https://docs.rs-online.com/512f/0900766b8137f3b1.pdf • https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/push-button-switches/1759621 https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/push-button-switches/1759621 Datasheet for that lists 1M cycles: https://docs.rs-online.com/4ef8/0900766b81680212.pdf https://docs.rs-online.com/4ef8/0900766b81680212.pdf
- tirpen 2y ago
  > How long will those tactile buttons last I can say without a doubt that I've had more touchscreens fail on me in my life than buttons. This is despite buttons being far more common for most of my lifespan.
ho_schi 2y ago
Good point! I still call that an Easter Egg because it is hidden. It took me months until I figured out that a long press on Enter allows movement of the map viewpoint. And then there is the sub menu providing the same feature. For outsiders: You’re move the map by turning your handlebar and riding in another direction. It automatically follows your position, heading and zooms in an out (depending on travel speed and upcoming turns). And routes are planned ahead of time on the computer (i. e. GPX) because you usually don’t want the shortest route between to points. So the feature flyingcircus is mentions isn’t needed? It is seldom needed. You can use it if a road is blocked to search the area for alternatives or looking for another riders current position (GroupTrack is awesome and complicated to setup) if far away. The 840 (buttons + touch) solves that, for twice the price and is bigger/heavier. Or if you want avoid touch, more buttons :) The old eTrex series feature a kind of TrackPoint serving as cursor-keys and enter-keys. I kept mine, because it shows many good design decisions (AA-Batteries, SD-Card, TrackPoint…) but of course it cannot compete with the Edge 530 (Turn-By-Turn Nav, Training-Status, Sensors, WiFi…). An Edge with this kind of TrackPoint would be awesome.

II2II 2y ago

> The rise of the touchscreens are an accident. Because MBAs believe iPhone == touch == good. Which they are, given the application. It also goes beyond size and cost. How long will those tactile buttons last, particularly given that the device is meant to be used frequently and is frequently stuffed into a pocket? Don't get me wrong. I have an ereader with buttons because I like buttons. Yet those buttons are not going to endure the same amount of abuse as they would on a phone.

TeMPOraL 2y ago
> How long will those tactile buttons last, particularly given that the device is meant to be used frequently and is frequently stuffed into a pocket? Decades. Which I guess is too much for a world that's driven by "value engineering". I mean, we actually have hard data for this. "Dumb phones" (even those that would run J2ME and had apps and stuff) can easily last for decades, and their buttons work fine after 5+ years of intensive use[0]. In contrast, it's rare to find someone whose smartphone lasted more than a year without getting its screen cracked, or three years without at least one screen replacement job. -- [0] - I would know - I graduated high school around when the first iPhone was released. If you weren't of similar age at that time, then believe me when I say it: there is no tougher test for durability of a phone keyboard than having been used by a teenager back then. There was no Messenger or WhatsApp, phone calls were expensive, and videocalls were the thing for super rich, so all the friendships and romance of that age meant texting 24/7, hammering the shit out of the keyboard, day in, day out, for years. Never once heard of anyone's keyboard breaking under the load.
- eurleif 2y ago
  In your personal experience, does no one use phone cases or what?
  - TeMPOraL 2y ago
    Of course everyone is using phone cases - without them, hardly any smartphone would last a month without needing a screen replacement. (It was better a decade ago, when smartphones were still thick and made of hard plastic. Now that they're all thin and metal, they're too slippery to handle safely.)
    - oblio 2y ago
      I'm not using a phone case, never have. You can have a smartphone for many years if you don't mind micro-scratches. Just don't drop it too often from too high up.
  - ho_schi 2y ago
    This is outsourcing a problem solution to the user. And the covers are a mere workaround. * Shall not be needed for a well designed device. * Covers are ugly. * Make devices even bigger than they are already. * Don’t protect against high forces. Don’t get me wrong. A cover reduces the risks. My phone is alive despite I don’t use one but that is luck (and some care). Manufacturers get away with weird design decisions. * Hard (fragile) screens. Somewhat okay? * Camera lenses extending out of device body. * Camera bump extending out of device body. * Glued sealant instead of replaceable sealing rubber (Apple *does not* guarantee that the iPhone survives water - the glued sealant ages). * Glas backside to make it more fragile. Which improves Qi-Charging needed for metal bodies. Which wouldn’t be needed with polymers bodies. And then there is the Nokia 5110. Surfing everything except water. And the next gen? Nokia built the antenna inside because they improved it. The didn’t sold „more is better“. Nokia improved the device itself :)
- II2II 2y ago
  Feature phones were entirely different beasts. Screens were typically smaller, and much better protected (either with a platic window covering the screen or by the keyboard folding over the screen, which also protected the buttons). Likewise, the buttons tended to be much better protected (either when folded closed, or by having a keyboard on a slider). On top of that, they were very user hostile. Consider your texting example. Between cost and size, most people were repeatedly bashing each key on a numeric keypad to get a single letter. Few phones had touch screens (the screens were too small for them to be practical), so navigating through options was considerably more difficult. Oh, I know that alternatives existed. Complete keyboards. Larger screens (but by no means large by current standards) with touch input complimenting the keyboard. I had one of them. Yet it was nothing compared to what we have today, and I doubt that we could have what we have today with what we had then (buttons!) without seriously compromising the size of the device or the durability of those buttons.
justinclift 2y ago
> How long will those tactile buttons last Button manufacturers rate their products for this kind of thing. ie. "10k cycles" (not that high), "1M cycles" (better), etc. So it really depends upon the device manufacturer to pick something appropriate. Random examples: • https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/push-button-switches/1336473 https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/push-button-switches/1336473 Datasheet for that has 10k cycles: https://docs.rs-online.com/512f/0900766b8137f3b1.pdf https://docs.rs-online.com/512f/0900766b8137f3b1.pdf • https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/push-button-switches/1759621 https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/push-button-switches/1759621 Datasheet for that lists 1M cycles: https://docs.rs-online.com/4ef8/0900766b81680212.pdf https://docs.rs-online.com/4ef8/0900766b81680212.pdf
tirpen 2y ago
> How long will those tactile buttons last I can say without a doubt that I've had more touchscreens fail on me in my life than buttons. This is despite buttons being far more common for most of my lifespan.

ho_schi 2y ago

Good point! I still call that an Easter Egg because it is hidden. It took me months until I figured out that a long press on Enter allows movement of the map viewpoint. And then there is the sub menu providing the same feature. For outsiders: You’re move the map by turning your handlebar and riding in another direction. It automatically follows your position, heading and zooms in an out (depending on travel speed and upcoming turns). And routes are planned ahead of time on the computer (i. e. GPX) because you usually don’t want the shortest route between to points. So the feature flyingcircus is mentions isn’t needed? It is seldom needed. You can use it if a road is blocked to search the area for alternatives or looking for another riders current position (GroupTrack is awesome and complicated to setup) if far away. The 840 (buttons + touch) solves that, for twice the price and is bigger/heavier. Or if you want avoid touch, more buttons :) The old eTrex series feature a kind of TrackPoint serving as cursor-keys and enter-keys. I kept mine, because it shows many good design decisions (AA-Batteries, SD-Card, TrackPoint…) but of course it cannot compete with the Edge 530 (Turn-By-Turn Nav, Training-Status, Sensors, WiFi…). An Edge with this kind of TrackPoint would be awesome.