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Disagree. Mandatory access ramps exists because we have decided it's a problem to be fixed by society, not the individual. The result is far greater access for

by tpxl 2y ago

Disagree. Mandatory access ramps exists because we have decided it's a problem to be fixed by society, not the individual. The result is far greater access for people with wheelchairs. It's not about who's at fault, it's who has to provide a solution. Society has far more means to provide a solution than each individual.

rolph 2y ago
when you[society] create the problem in the first place, its on you to fix it. major problem that needs fixing is leave things alone when there is no problem. forcing new tech, standards and spec, into place so even more money,influence,control can be attained is not a solution to any problem, its a source.
- oblio 2y ago
  How does your comment relate in any way to the wheelchair ramp comment you're replying to?
carlosjobim 2y ago
Individuals exist, "society" has never existed and will never exist. It's only individuals who can take actions. "Society" does not have any means at all, because it's just a mirage within the imagination of some people. It's individuals mandating the building of wheelchair ramps, it is individuals who build them, and individuals who use them. You don't need to give your nephew or niece a high paying job to make some weird theories about "society". You can instead just state the truth that some people can't walk and if you have the power you can mandate that business owners need to make their places accessible for these people.
- afarviral 2y ago
  Oh right. Yes, I agree that motivated individuals get the work done for themselves and others. It's just that some people don't acknowledge that we collectively own problems/solutions because they are structural (inherent to the structures of our systems /"society") and tend to blame individuals for their own problems. Of course individuals can be wholey responsible for things, e.g. a corrupt politician. But getting rid of corruption is up to other individuals (I.e. society). It's idealist to imagine that a corrupt politician should just stop being corrupt, it's realistic to overthrow them collectively with other individuals (society).
- fwip 2y ago
  Atoms exist, "molecules" have never existed and will never exist.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- astrocat 2y ago
  Your argument is essentially that emergent properties don't exist. It's like saying "there are no such things as waves in water, just individual water molecules." Individuals are the water molecules, and "society" is the blanket term for the emergent properties that happen when a lot of people are together. The phenomena are real and have real effects and impacts. Intrinsic and environmental factors affect the system: hydrogen bonds between water molecules (intrinsic) creates the emergent phenomenon we call "surface tension" and wind (environmental) creates waves. So too in people: intrinsic attributes of individuals and connections between them as well as environmental factors affecting entire populations create emergent effects that can be observed and studied. I suspect you mean to appeal to the recognition that, unlike water molecules, individual humans have free will and agency and the ability to make choices completely independently. I suspect you abhor the notion of 'groupthink' and excuses for behavior that are underpinned by concepts of culture and social constructs. And there is truth to these ideas, but as with most things, they are helpful as part of a broader model, and not as a totalitarian view of human behavior. We are complex creatures, in complex systems; to ignore the tendencies of our emergent behaviors is as risky as turning your back to a rough shorebreak, believing all the individual water molecules will simply be rational and choose not to hit you, only to be engulfed in a wave that really does exist.
  - carlosjobim 2y ago
    I like your comment. Don't agree with your comparisons, but you write in a way adding to the discussion and bringing understanding. In lack of better comparisons from myself, Santa Claus does not exist. As a concept and an idea he of course exists and has real impact on what people do and what they feel. But part of growing up is differentiating between what is real and what is lie. Enlightened adults shouldn't believe in "society", while still being aware and updated of the possible threats from people who believe in it. Another example: "Courage" is an abstract idea, but also a very real description of acts by some people. But we all learn when we are kids to not let another kid manipulate us into doing something by saying "Do it or you're a coward!". Even kids learn this early.
    - astrocat 2y ago
- immibis 2y ago
  "Society has never existed and will never exist" is one hell of a take. Are you okay?
  - carlosjobim 2y ago
    Odd comment. Just an old and tired insult á la reddit and nothing else?
bigstrat2003 2y ago
> Mandatory access ramps exists because we have decided it's a problem to be fixed by society, not the individual. The result is far greater access for people with wheelchairs. I think that was a bad call. Society should not shape itself for the sake of a minority of people. That's just silly.
- ifokiedoke 2y ago
  I forget where I read it, but this isn't a very thought-out view. _Especially_ with the example of access ramps -- yes, the ramps were originally put in after activism for better wheelchair accessibility. But who ended up using them a whole lot and benefiting from them? Parents with strollers. Would we say that the needs of parents of young children, or young children are a minority? Do we not care about their experience even when we're having a population crisis? In hindsight, this is a pretty obvious conclusion if we would have taken a bit of extra time to consider why we might want accessibility ramps, but instead we get sidetracked by exactly the kind of thinking displayed by your comment. When people say "accessibility is good for everyone" it's not a naive feel-good comment. It's an acknowledgement that at some point all of us could use help with accessibility (e.g. when you become a parent, when you get old, etc)
- Gibbon1 2y ago
  Everyone is or will be a minority at some point.
  - carlosjobim 2y ago
    Wise comment.
- Mawr 2y ago
  https://www.reddit.com/r/MadeMeSmile/comments/1gdzr3a/i_think_people_forget_accessibility_is_for/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MadeMeSmile/comments/1gdzr3a/i_thin...
- oblio 2y ago
  I hope I'm missing some sarcasm here.

by tpxl 2y ago

rolph 2y ago

when you[society] create the problem in the first place, its on you to fix it. major problem that needs fixing is leave things alone when there is no problem. forcing new tech, standards and spec, into place so even more money,influence,control can be attained is not a solution to any problem, its a source.

oblio 2y ago
How does your comment relate in any way to the wheelchair ramp comment you're replying to?

carlosjobim 2y ago

Individuals exist, "society" has never existed and will never exist. It's only individuals who can take actions. "Society" does not have any means at all, because it's just a mirage within the imagination of some people. It's individuals mandating the building of wheelchair ramps, it is individuals who build them, and individuals who use them. You don't need to give your nephew or niece a high paying job to make some weird theories about "society". You can instead just state the truth that some people can't walk and if you have the power you can mandate that business owners need to make their places accessible for these people.

afarviral 2y ago
Oh right. Yes, I agree that motivated individuals get the work done for themselves and others. It's just that some people don't acknowledge that we collectively own problems/solutions because they are structural (inherent to the structures of our systems /"society") and tend to blame individuals for their own problems. Of course individuals can be wholey responsible for things, e.g. a corrupt politician. But getting rid of corruption is up to other individuals (I.e. society). It's idealist to imagine that a corrupt politician should just stop being corrupt, it's realistic to overthrow them collectively with other individuals (society).
fwip 2y ago
Atoms exist, "molecules" have never existed and will never exist.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
astrocat 2y ago
Your argument is essentially that emergent properties don't exist. It's like saying "there are no such things as waves in water, just individual water molecules." Individuals are the water molecules, and "society" is the blanket term for the emergent properties that happen when a lot of people are together. The phenomena are real and have real effects and impacts. Intrinsic and environmental factors affect the system: hydrogen bonds between water molecules (intrinsic) creates the emergent phenomenon we call "surface tension" and wind (environmental) creates waves. So too in people: intrinsic attributes of individuals and connections between them as well as environmental factors affecting entire populations create emergent effects that can be observed and studied. I suspect you mean to appeal to the recognition that, unlike water molecules, individual humans have free will and agency and the ability to make choices completely independently. I suspect you abhor the notion of 'groupthink' and excuses for behavior that are underpinned by concepts of culture and social constructs. And there is truth to these ideas, but as with most things, they are helpful as part of a broader model, and not as a totalitarian view of human behavior. We are complex creatures, in complex systems; to ignore the tendencies of our emergent behaviors is as risky as turning your back to a rough shorebreak, believing all the individual water molecules will simply be rational and choose not to hit you, only to be engulfed in a wave that really does exist.
- carlosjobim 2y ago
  I like your comment. Don't agree with your comparisons, but you write in a way adding to the discussion and bringing understanding. In lack of better comparisons from myself, Santa Claus does not exist. As a concept and an idea he of course exists and has real impact on what people do and what they feel. But part of growing up is differentiating between what is real and what is lie. Enlightened adults shouldn't believe in "society", while still being aware and updated of the possible threats from people who believe in it. Another example: "Courage" is an abstract idea, but also a very real description of acts by some people. But we all learn when we are kids to not let another kid manipulate us into doing something by saying "Do it or you're a coward!". Even kids learn this early.
  - astrocat 2y ago
immibis 2y ago
"Society has never existed and will never exist" is one hell of a take. Are you okay?
- carlosjobim 2y ago
  Odd comment. Just an old and tired insult á la reddit and nothing else?

bigstrat2003 2y ago

> Mandatory access ramps exists because we have decided it's a problem to be fixed by society, not the individual. The result is far greater access for people with wheelchairs. I think that was a bad call. Society should not shape itself for the sake of a minority of people. That's just silly.

ifokiedoke 2y ago
I forget where I read it, but this isn't a very thought-out view. _Especially_ with the example of access ramps -- yes, the ramps were originally put in after activism for better wheelchair accessibility. But who ended up using them a whole lot and benefiting from them? Parents with strollers. Would we say that the needs of parents of young children, or young children are a minority? Do we not care about their experience even when we're having a population crisis? In hindsight, this is a pretty obvious conclusion if we would have taken a bit of extra time to consider why we might want accessibility ramps, but instead we get sidetracked by exactly the kind of thinking displayed by your comment. When people say "accessibility is good for everyone" it's not a naive feel-good comment. It's an acknowledgement that at some point all of us could use help with accessibility (e.g. when you become a parent, when you get old, etc)
Gibbon1 2y ago
Everyone is or will be a minority at some point.
- carlosjobim 2y ago
  Wise comment.
Mawr 2y ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/MadeMeSmile/comments/1gdzr3a/i_think_people_forget_accessibility_is_for/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MadeMeSmile/comments/1gdzr3a/i_thin...
oblio 2y ago
I hope I'm missing some sarcasm here.