5 ms·

I can confirm the troubles with age. Another problem are cold and hot environments (sweat). Anyway. Tactile input is generally better where an efficient place

I can confirm the troubles with age. Another problem are cold and hot environments (sweat). Anyway. Tactile input is generally better where an efficient placement of physical input controls is possible. Garmin is a seldom example of a company doing it right with the Edge 840. They merged the tactile 530 and the touch 830 into one device. The best of both worlds. Guess what I prefer? It is the Edge 530. Better screen to body ratio :) The rise of the touchscreens are an accident. Because MBAs believe iPhone == touch == good. It isn’t. The iPhone is just small, physical switches expensive (remember the slider smartphones) and you can merge output with input (this a pro and a con). Nice when you want to zoom a map. Horrible if Okay changes the position, worse when the keyboard requires the half screen and interaction is generally ineffective. I recommend: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Design_of_Everyday_Things https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Design_of_Everyday_Things 1. Layout your tactile interface in a way that it allows the user to create a mental model of it. 2. In best case this model exists already. 3. Make it hard to use it wrong. 4. Make it easy to use it right. 5. Also applies to the output. If the turn indicator is ON, make it ON. PS: Right now I struggle to hide my touch keyboard. No „DONE“ or „HIDE“ and I cannot access my bookmarks for my recommendation. Can I express an wish? Dear device manufacturers. Please used high quality switches with travel, resistance and a click „BIPPITY-BUMP“. Add a spring. Built in a indicator light within!

thomassmith65 2y ago
The rise of the touchscreens are an accident. Because MBAs believe iPhone == touch == good. It isn’t. Amen! There so many flaws to touchscreens. With the most common touchscreen implementations: • user must hover hand above screen to avoid errant 'clicks' which is physically tiresome during prolonged use • user cannot locate button without looking at screen, and feedback, if any, is several ms delayed (ie: till audio 'click' sound plays) • user cannot easily control GUI on large, or multiple displays, since input-to-output scale is 1-to-1 • user cannot view the content under the target without workarounds (eg: iOS's loop widget) since user's finger blocks part of screen, and a human finger is relatively large compared to screen
- meindnoch 2y ago
  >iOS's loop widget You mean the magnifying glass during text selection?
  - thomassmith65 2y ago
    Oops, maybe the spelling is 'loupe', but yes.
    - thfuran 2y ago
      It is. And outside of contexts where a particular trade or profession uses them as a tool, they're typically called magnifying glasses.
      - thomassmith65 2y ago
        I don't know for certain, but I suspect Adobe introduced its 'loupe tool' in 1987 when it released Photoshop. Whether or not 'loupe' is pretentious, it is now a ubiquitous term in the software industry. It's also four syllables shorter than 'magnifying glass' which, in my view (and when correctly spelled!), absolves it.
bboygravity 2y ago
Amen, I use a Unihertz Titan for this reason.
flyingcircus3 2y ago
Perhaps there were multiple iterations of the Garmin Edge 530, and we're talking about two different interfaces, but this is the process for zooming and panning the map on my Edge 530: From the map screen, to change zoom, hold a button until a +/- appears next to other buttons. Use those other buttons to zoom in or out. To pan up or down, hold that same button again, until up/down arrows appear next to the other buttons. Use those other buttons to pan up or down. To pan left or right, repeat this process once more. The entire value proposition of a bike mounted map is to be able to navigate without stopping to use your phone. But if the interface to adjust the map is this cumbersome, stopping to look at a phone is the smart move, never mind the better user experience.
- II2II 2y ago
  > The rise of the touchscreens are an accident. Because MBAs believe iPhone == touch == good. Which they are, given the application. It also goes beyond size and cost. How long will those tactile buttons last, particularly given that the device is meant to be used frequently and is frequently stuffed into a pocket? Don't get me wrong. I have an ereader with buttons because I like buttons. Yet those buttons are not going to endure the same amount of abuse as they would on a phone.
  - TeMPOraL 2y ago
    > How long will those tactile buttons last, particularly given that the device is meant to be used frequently and is frequently stuffed into a pocket? Decades. Which I guess is too much for a world that's driven by "value engineering". I mean, we actually have hard data for this. "Dumb phones" (even those that would run J2ME and had apps and stuff) can easily last for decades, and their buttons work fine after 5+ years of intensive use[0]. In contrast, it's rare to find someone whose smartphone lasted more than a year without getting its screen cracked, or three years without at least one screen replacement job. -- [0] - I would know - I graduated high school around when the first iPhone was released. If you weren't of similar age at that time, then believe me when I say it: there is no tougher test for durability of a phone keyboard than having been used by a teenager back then. There was no Messenger or WhatsApp, phone calls were expensive, and videocalls were the thing for super rich, so all the friendships and romance of that age meant texting 24/7, hammering the shit out of the keyboard, day in, day out, for years. Never once heard of anyone's keyboard breaking under the load.
kanbankaren 2y ago
> Dear device manufacturers. Please used high quality switches with travel, resistance and a click „BIPPITY-BUMP“. Add a spring. Built in a indicator light within! Essentially, you are asking what the avionics industry is already doing. Just look at the cockpit of a plane.
- TeMPOraL 2y ago
  Unfortunately, if you then look at the price tag attached to that plane, you'll know why no one else is doing it :/.
  - floating-io 2y ago
    Planes are expensive due to the difficulty of certifying them and maintaining the right to sell them under various regulations, not because they're using physical switches.
    - TeMPOraL 2y ago
      Yes, but large price and low volume (and actual technical acceptance criteria) also means they're not gonna be obsessing over saving fractional cents on control panels.
listenallyall 2y ago
MBAs? Biggest advocates I've seen for touchscreen are product designers, they tend to be obsessed with perfectly flat, unobstructed surfaces.
- oblio 2y ago
  Designers can be the bane of usability. Small text is an example. There's a strong conflict between "design for usability" and "design for looks". Function versus form.

thomassmith65 2y ago

The rise of the touchscreens are an accident. Because MBAs believe iPhone == touch == good. It isn’t. Amen! There so many flaws to touchscreens. With the most common touchscreen implementations: • user must hover hand above screen to avoid errant 'clicks' which is physically tiresome during prolonged use • user cannot locate button without looking at screen, and feedback, if any, is several ms delayed (ie: till audio 'click' sound plays) • user cannot easily control GUI on large, or multiple displays, since input-to-output scale is 1-to-1 • user cannot view the content under the target without workarounds (eg: iOS's loop widget) since user's finger blocks part of screen, and a human finger is relatively large compared to screen

meindnoch 2y ago
>iOS's loop widget You mean the magnifying glass during text selection?
- thomassmith65 2y ago
  Oops, maybe the spelling is 'loupe', but yes.
  - thfuran 2y ago
    It is. And outside of contexts where a particular trade or profession uses them as a tool, they're typically called magnifying glasses.
    - thomassmith65 2y ago
      I don't know for certain, but I suspect Adobe introduced its 'loupe tool' in 1987 when it released Photoshop. Whether or not 'loupe' is pretentious, it is now a ubiquitous term in the software industry. It's also four syllables shorter than 'magnifying glass' which, in my view (and when correctly spelled!), absolves it.

bboygravity 2y ago

Amen, I use a Unihertz Titan for this reason.

flyingcircus3 2y ago

Perhaps there were multiple iterations of the Garmin Edge 530, and we're talking about two different interfaces, but this is the process for zooming and panning the map on my Edge 530: From the map screen, to change zoom, hold a button until a +/- appears next to other buttons. Use those other buttons to zoom in or out. To pan up or down, hold that same button again, until up/down arrows appear next to the other buttons. Use those other buttons to pan up or down. To pan left or right, repeat this process once more. The entire value proposition of a bike mounted map is to be able to navigate without stopping to use your phone. But if the interface to adjust the map is this cumbersome, stopping to look at a phone is the smart move, never mind the better user experience.

II2II 2y ago
> The rise of the touchscreens are an accident. Because MBAs believe iPhone == touch == good. Which they are, given the application. It also goes beyond size and cost. How long will those tactile buttons last, particularly given that the device is meant to be used frequently and is frequently stuffed into a pocket? Don't get me wrong. I have an ereader with buttons because I like buttons. Yet those buttons are not going to endure the same amount of abuse as they would on a phone.
- TeMPOraL 2y ago
  > How long will those tactile buttons last, particularly given that the device is meant to be used frequently and is frequently stuffed into a pocket? Decades. Which I guess is too much for a world that's driven by "value engineering". I mean, we actually have hard data for this. "Dumb phones" (even those that would run J2ME and had apps and stuff) can easily last for decades, and their buttons work fine after 5+ years of intensive use[0]. In contrast, it's rare to find someone whose smartphone lasted more than a year without getting its screen cracked, or three years without at least one screen replacement job. -- [0] - I would know - I graduated high school around when the first iPhone was released. If you weren't of similar age at that time, then believe me when I say it: there is no tougher test for durability of a phone keyboard than having been used by a teenager back then. There was no Messenger or WhatsApp, phone calls were expensive, and videocalls were the thing for super rich, so all the friendships and romance of that age meant texting 24/7, hammering the shit out of the keyboard, day in, day out, for years. Never once heard of anyone's keyboard breaking under the load.

kanbankaren 2y ago

> Dear device manufacturers. Please used high quality switches with travel, resistance and a click „BIPPITY-BUMP“. Add a spring. Built in a indicator light within! Essentially, you are asking what the avionics industry is already doing. Just look at the cockpit of a plane.

TeMPOraL 2y ago
Unfortunately, if you then look at the price tag attached to that plane, you'll know why no one else is doing it :/.
- floating-io 2y ago
  Planes are expensive due to the difficulty of certifying them and maintaining the right to sell them under various regulations, not because they're using physical switches.
  - TeMPOraL 2y ago
    Yes, but large price and low volume (and actual technical acceptance criteria) also means they're not gonna be obsessing over saving fractional cents on control panels.

listenallyall 2y ago

MBAs? Biggest advocates I've seen for touchscreen are product designers, they tend to be obsessed with perfectly flat, unobstructed surfaces.

oblio 2y ago
Designers can be the bane of usability. Small text is an example. There's a strong conflict between "design for usability" and "design for looks". Function versus form.