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This is the standard response, and I've given it myself, but I refuse to accept that we need all of the bloat of Chromium in order to do internationalization, a

This is the standard response, and I've given it myself, but I refuse to accept that we need all of the bloat of Chromium in order to do internationalization, accessibility, fast high-resolution rendering, etc. I use a different retro point of reference than josephg, though it happens to involve the same microprocessor. One of my favorite programs as a child was Diversi-Tune, an early music program for the Apple IIGS. It could play and record MIDI, and also show song lyrics, karaoke-style. The total program size is just under 48 KB, including one file that appears to contain configuration data. Granted, that doesn't count the Apple IIGS ROM or the ProDOS 8 operating system. When you add those, the total comes to just under 200 KB (for a ROM version 01 Apple IIGS). And Diversi-Tune didn't even use all of the ROM. I know this because one of the areas where Diversi-Tune fell short, even by Apple IIGS standards, was accessibility. The documentation for the Textalker GS screen reader specifically called out that the screen reader didn't work with Diversi-Tune because Diversi-Tune didn't use QuickDraw II for text output. Needless to say, Diversi-Tune didn't support modern internationalization either. But how much code would it really take to implement a modern Diversi-Tune with accessibility, internationalization, and so on? It must be well short of the ~180 MB (and growing) for an Electron binary. Current work on Rust GUIs suggests that the binary size might fall between 5 and 15 MB, depending on which compiler optimizations one chooses. And that's with an advanced GPU-based renderer that compiles shaders at run time. I'm sure it's possible to do better on that front. Of course, that's on top of the OS, but one could easily imagine a sub-500-MB Linux-based OS as the platform. I don't know about memory usage.

josephg 2y ago
Yeah the other reference point I sometimes think about is the old windows IRC client mIRC. mIRC was super fully featured - it supported downloads, scripting (I think it had its own embedded scripting language), colors, and all sorts of other wild things that I never learned to use. It had way more features than modern discord, although it was missing discord's voice chat, video chat and screen sharing. (And it obviously didn't have any of the modern encryption algorithms). I downloaded it over my 56k modem and if I'm remembering right, the download was around 2-3mb.
- jeroenhd 2y ago
  Programs like mIRC benefitted a lot from the hundreds of megabytes of Windows libraries that the OS shipped with. These days applications all seem to ship their own copy of every system DLL so they can work on every platform without having to support different APIs. As a result, mIRC only worked on Windows. If mIRC is all you need, mIRC still works just fine. It's still maintained, so unlike ancient versions of MS Office, you can be reasonably safe while using it!
  - josephg 2y ago
    > Programs like mIRC benefitted a lot from the hundreds of megabytes of Windows libraries that the OS shipped with. Hundreds of megabytes is overstating it. Windows 98 was 175mb for the entire OS, including the kernel and all included applications. I doubt the windows UI library of the day (winforms, gdi, etc) totalled more than 20mb. (But please fact check!) And, I don’t think browser engines like electron do ship their own system dlls. Dlls are only relevant on windows - they won’t do you any good on Linux or macOS. And windows always comes with those dlls. I’m pretty sure chrome on windows still makes use of a lot of the underlying windows APIs to render content on webpages in a system-native way. It just has its own layer of heavily custom UI code layered on top. But yeah, it’s cool that applications like mirc still work. It would definitely be a fun project to make a Spotify client or something in zig using winforms. It would be a fun exercise to make something so small.

josephg 2y ago

Yeah the other reference point I sometimes think about is the old windows IRC client mIRC. mIRC was super fully featured - it supported downloads, scripting (I think it had its own embedded scripting language), colors, and all sorts of other wild things that I never learned to use. It had way more features than modern discord, although it was missing discord's voice chat, video chat and screen sharing. (And it obviously didn't have any of the modern encryption algorithms). I downloaded it over my 56k modem and if I'm remembering right, the download was around 2-3mb.

jeroenhd 2y ago
Programs like mIRC benefitted a lot from the hundreds of megabytes of Windows libraries that the OS shipped with. These days applications all seem to ship their own copy of every system DLL so they can work on every platform without having to support different APIs. As a result, mIRC only worked on Windows. If mIRC is all you need, mIRC still works just fine. It's still maintained, so unlike ancient versions of MS Office, you can be reasonably safe while using it!
- josephg 2y ago
  > Programs like mIRC benefitted a lot from the hundreds of megabytes of Windows libraries that the OS shipped with. Hundreds of megabytes is overstating it. Windows 98 was 175mb for the entire OS, including the kernel and all included applications. I doubt the windows UI library of the day (winforms, gdi, etc) totalled more than 20mb. (But please fact check!) And, I don’t think browser engines like electron do ship their own system dlls. Dlls are only relevant on windows - they won’t do you any good on Linux or macOS. And windows always comes with those dlls. I’m pretty sure chrome on windows still makes use of a lot of the underlying windows APIs to render content on webpages in a system-native way. It just has its own layer of heavily custom UI code layered on top. But yeah, it’s cool that applications like mirc still work. It would definitely be a fun project to make a Spotify client or something in zig using winforms. It would be a fun exercise to make something so small.