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Software engineering used to be focused more on actual engineering. It was more about building cool things that created business value. The layer of politics s

Software engineering used to be focused more on actual engineering. It was more about building cool things that created business value. The layer of politics seeping more into software engineering is giving developers a finance/management experience. That's not to say politics didn't exist before, but the idea of showing allegiance for survival feels more like Game of Thrones than software development. I guess the time when software culture had an abundance mindset has ended.

socksy 2y ago
Ah yes, back when spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri
kstenerud 2y ago
The focus hasn't changed; only the rose-colored glasses looking into a few gems of the past. Whenever there are more than two people together, there are politics - even if you try to pretend there aren't. There's no escaping it.
- Attummm 2y ago
  The focus has changed, and the outcomes of that are felt throughout the industry. Even today, they are being discussed on HN in another thread[0]. I'll post an excerpt from the current highest-voted comment. > Like why didn't anyone catch the issue with the logs? Because it doesn't matter, every data team is a cost-centre that unscrupulous managers use to launch their careers by saying they're big on AI. So nothing works, no-one cares it doesn't work, most the data engineers are incapable of coding fizzbuzz but it doesn't matter. People always wonder why banks etc. use old mainframes. There's like a 0% success rate for new data projects. And that 0% includes projects which had launch parties etc. but no-one ever used the data or noticed how broken it was. I don't think a lot of orgs which use data as core-infra could modernize, the industry is just so broken at this point I don't think we can do what we did 30 years ago. [0]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42010249 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42010249
  - theamk 2y ago
    Was this ever different? I bet ever since first COBOL app was written, there were failed projects, or projects which appeared successful but were just barely limping along. "Mythical Man Month" was published in 1975.
- User23 2y ago
  No, it’s definitely changed. As tech has become bigger and bigger the demographics of the field have approached the demographics of the overall population. Back in the 90s the tiny subset of self-selected people involved were almost all mission oriented true believers. As it grew and became extremely lucrative the folks with other priorities were attracted. As you say, there is always politics, but the difference in quantity is large enough to have a quality of its own.
  - kstenerud 2y ago
    Really? I must have been working for the wrong tech companies in the 90s then...
- harpiaharpyja 2y ago
  > Whenever there are more than two people together, there are politics - even if you try to pretend there aren't. There's no escaping it. This is an equivocation. Sure, any time there is a group there will be "politics," but that doesn't have to mean the kind of social dynamics many people associate with the word. A group built on trust and cooperation is just as possible.
linguae 2y ago
I hate to be that guy, but politics has always been part of the story of software development. The history of Apple is filled with all sorts of drama, with projects getting cancelled and people getting fired due to politics. Xerox PARC’s glory days in the 1970s were not politics-free; there were clashes between Bob Taylor and other high-level people, which finally reached a breaking point in 1983, leading to Taylor moving on to Digital Equipment Corporation and many PARC researchers following him there. Even in the non-profit open source world (some would say especially instead of even), there’s plenty of politics.
- Attummm 2y ago
  Actually, you've reinforced my point. Those examples are, as you said, high-level executives, not software engineers. While office politics has always existed, it used to remain within the context of engineering. You mention Apple, Steve Jobs was the business person/visionary. But Steve Wozniak, the engineer behind Apple, actually made it very clear he doesn't like nor want to participate in politics or business tricks.
nvarsj 2y ago
As long as humans have had to work together, politics exist. Whether you are isolated from it is solely down to your manager and leadership. But it’s always there.

socksy 2y ago

Ah yes, back when spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri

kstenerud 2y ago

The focus hasn't changed; only the rose-colored glasses looking into a few gems of the past. Whenever there are more than two people together, there are politics - even if you try to pretend there aren't. There's no escaping it.

Attummm 2y ago
The focus has changed, and the outcomes of that are felt throughout the industry. Even today, they are being discussed on HN in another thread[0]. I'll post an excerpt from the current highest-voted comment. > Like why didn't anyone catch the issue with the logs? Because it doesn't matter, every data team is a cost-centre that unscrupulous managers use to launch their careers by saying they're big on AI. So nothing works, no-one cares it doesn't work, most the data engineers are incapable of coding fizzbuzz but it doesn't matter. People always wonder why banks etc. use old mainframes. There's like a 0% success rate for new data projects. And that 0% includes projects which had launch parties etc. but no-one ever used the data or noticed how broken it was. I don't think a lot of orgs which use data as core-infra could modernize, the industry is just so broken at this point I don't think we can do what we did 30 years ago. [0]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42010249 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42010249
- theamk 2y ago
  Was this ever different? I bet ever since first COBOL app was written, there were failed projects, or projects which appeared successful but were just barely limping along. "Mythical Man Month" was published in 1975.
User23 2y ago
No, it’s definitely changed. As tech has become bigger and bigger the demographics of the field have approached the demographics of the overall population. Back in the 90s the tiny subset of self-selected people involved were almost all mission oriented true believers. As it grew and became extremely lucrative the folks with other priorities were attracted. As you say, there is always politics, but the difference in quantity is large enough to have a quality of its own.
- kstenerud 2y ago
  Really? I must have been working for the wrong tech companies in the 90s then...
harpiaharpyja 2y ago
> Whenever there are more than two people together, there are politics - even if you try to pretend there aren't. There's no escaping it. This is an equivocation. Sure, any time there is a group there will be "politics," but that doesn't have to mean the kind of social dynamics many people associate with the word. A group built on trust and cooperation is just as possible.

linguae 2y ago

I hate to be that guy, but politics has always been part of the story of software development. The history of Apple is filled with all sorts of drama, with projects getting cancelled and people getting fired due to politics. Xerox PARC’s glory days in the 1970s were not politics-free; there were clashes between Bob Taylor and other high-level people, which finally reached a breaking point in 1983, leading to Taylor moving on to Digital Equipment Corporation and many PARC researchers following him there. Even in the non-profit open source world (some would say especially instead of even), there’s plenty of politics.

Attummm 2y ago
Actually, you've reinforced my point. Those examples are, as you said, high-level executives, not software engineers. While office politics has always existed, it used to remain within the context of engineering. You mention Apple, Steve Jobs was the business person/visionary. But Steve Wozniak, the engineer behind Apple, actually made it very clear he doesn't like nor want to participate in politics or business tricks.

nvarsj 2y ago

As long as humans have had to work together, politics exist. Whether you are isolated from it is solely down to your manager and leadership. But it’s always there.