5 ms·

You are confusing reality with your own wishes: Many Jews actively opposed the creation of a Jewish nation; the Bund is just one example [0]. I’m not sure what

You are confusing reality with your own wishes: Many Jews actively opposed the creation of a Jewish nation; the Bund is just one example [0]. I’m not sure what your point is here—people are entitled to different opinions. However, Einstein actively persuaded world leaders to support the UN partition plan, which was before the founding of Israel. The founding of Israel resulted from the UN decision on the partition plan, which the Jews accepted while the Arabs rejected. The "mass expulsion" was a consequence of the war, similar to contemporary events in Europe (where 3 million ethnic Germans were displaced) and India (with approximately 20 million displaced). Additionally, you seem to overlook the 900,000 Jews displaced from Arab countries and areas that were meant to be part of Israel but ended up under Jordanian control. This is why, many people at the time (Einstein included) didn't hold the prevailing view that 80 years later is dominating the left. The U.S., Australia, New Zealand, and Canada were undeniably created through colonialism. Live with it. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Jewish_Labour_Bund https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Jewish_Labour_Bund

DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
Einstein publicly testified against the creation of a Jewish state in 1946. About the Bund: indeed, they represented mainstream Jewish opinion before WWII, which was anti-Zionist. > The founding of Israel resulted from the UN decision on the partition plan This is just historically wrong. First of all, the UN "decision" was actually a nonbinding proposal. Second, the leaders of the Zionist movement were preparing to go to war to create a Jewish state, regardless of what the UN did or did not propose. With the British leaving, there was going to be a power vacuum, and the Zionists were going to seize the opportunity. They had already built up an army (trained by the British) and most of the organs of government (like a legislature, an executive, and ministries handling different state affairs). They weren't waiting for the UN to decide. > The "mass expulsion" was a consequence of the war Zionist paramilitary forces went town by town forcibly expelling the residents. Those who remained were often killed. Many Palestinian civilians heard of these atrocities and fled in advance of Zionist forces. The Palestinian Exodus isn't just something that happened by itself. It was a brutal affair. After the war, the Israelis refused to let the Palestinians return home, and either expropriated (read, "stole") or destroyed their homes and property. If you just go down the list of major Israeli cities nowadays, many (maybe most) of them were formerly Arab cities, which the Zionists "cleansed" in 1948. Lod is the Hebrew name for Lydda, an Arab city where the IDF massacred over 100 civilians, then stripped the rest of the inhabitants of all belongings and drove them out at gunpoint, forcing them to walk on foot through the summer heat to the Jordanian army. After the war, Israel resettled the city with Jewish residents. The Israelis did this sort of thing all over Palestine. > U.S., Australia, New Zealand, and Canada were undeniably created through colonialism. If they had been created by the same methods in the last 75 years, then people would care just as much as they do about the expulsion of the Palestinians. Israel was founded as the colonial era was coming to an end. I would even say that if it weren't for the fact that Israel rules over millions of stateless Palestinians to this day, far fewer people would care. About 40% of the population of greater Israel - the area actually ruled by the Israeli state since 1967 - is subject to martial law and treated worse than dogs. That's why so many people care, and can't just "live with it."
- yonisto 2y ago
  I know that numbers and dates can seem intimidating, but let me assure you that 1946 came before 1947, which came before 1948. "In his testimony before the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry in January 1946, Einstein stated that he was not in favor of the creation of a Jewish state. However, in a 1947 letter to Indian Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru, he sought to persuade India to support Zionist aims of establishing a Jewish homeland in Palestine." So again, your wishes aren’t aligned with reality. >This is just historically wrong. First of all, the UN "decision" was actually a nonbinding proposal. Second, the leaders of the Zionist movement were preparing to go to war to create a Jewish state, regardless of what the UN did or did not propose… Resolution 181, while not binding, remains a plan that the Arab side rejected, and the Jews accepted. This isn’t speculation; it’s simply what happened. The Arab side not only rejected the plan but also took less than 12 hours to murder seven Jews — four women and three men. Again, this is not speculation; this is actually what happened. The Jews, acting like responsible adults, prepared for the worst-case scenario and, rightly so, prepared an army. Did the U.S. act wrongly when it strengthened its army before any hostilities from Japan? That’s what responsible adults do — they prepare for the future. While we can only speculate on what might have happened to the Jews if the Arabs had won, it’s not speculation that Mohammed Amin al-Husseini cooperated with the Nazis. Between 1941 and 1945, he lived in Berlin and worked as a Nazi propagandist. > Zionist paramilitary forces went town by town forcibly expelling … At the end of the war roughly 20% of Israel population were Arabs, so obviously you are lying when you say that they went “town by town”. Why are you lying? > The Palestinian Exodus … I never said it happened entirely on its own; many people were forced to leave. All I said was that it was (and to an extent still is — just look at Syria) a common practice in war. It happened during the partition of India (affecting 20 million people) and at the end of WWII, when 3 million ethnic Germans were displaced. So, intelligent people, like Einstein, wouldn’t think it unprecedented And as I was saying, and you ignored, all the land that was captured from Israel was ethnically cleansed from Jews. And there was a mass explusion of 900,000 Jews from Arab counties. What I really find it puzzling that you might have some good arguments to the peaceful nature of the Arabs, that they were all loving and caring. 2 most lovely examples: Hadassah medical convoy massacre [0] and Kfar Etzion massacre [1] > 1967 borders ... I'll never defend the settlements it is an abomination. Yet the root cause of the conflict remains the Palestinian refusal to any peace plan that doesn't include the destruction of Israel. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kfar_Etzion_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kfar_Etzion_massacre [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kfar_Etzion_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kfar_Etzion_massacre
aguaviva 2y ago
The U.S., Australia, New Zealand, and Canada were undeniably created through colonialism. Live with it. And genocide, slavery and a whole host of other evils. That doesn't mean we need to accept those evils when they're happening in the present day. Live with it.
- yonisto 2y ago
  Oh, are you talking about what China is doing to Tibet? Or Russia to Ukraine? Or perhaps you're referring to the suffering of the Uyghurs (China again)? I’m sure the Arabs would appreciate your help in Khuzestan (the Persians are really fucking them there). Or are you implying that you're focused on the 6.7 million refugees forced to flee Syria, and on bringing to justice those responsible for the deaths of 230,000 civilians? Or maybe you're thinking about the raped women in Darfur [0]? There are so many real evils to choose from—not imaginary ones involving Jews. But I know what you’ll end up choosing... the hallmark of anti-Semitism. Live with it. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2024/nov/03/we-will-make-you-have-arab-babies-fears-of-genocide-amid-and-torture-in-sudans-darfur https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2024/nov/03/w...
  - DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
    > There are so many real evils to choose from—not imaginary ones involving Jews. But I know what you’ll end up choosing... the hallmark of anti-Semitism. Saying that antisemitism is the reason people care about Israel killing 15,000 Palestinian children is pathetic and contemptible. You're abusing that term.
    - yonisto 2y ago
      15,000 children is an imagenry number. But my point is that as soon as you apply different rules to Jews that is antisemitism. Pure and simple, there is no way around it.
      - aguaviva 2y ago
        As of 13 May 2024, the U.N. has reported that the 35,000 who have died in the conflict includes 7,797 minors, 4,959 women and 1,924 elderly[52] with confirmed identities. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80...

DiogenesKynikos 2y ago

Einstein publicly testified against the creation of a Jewish state in 1946. About the Bund: indeed, they represented mainstream Jewish opinion before WWII, which was anti-Zionist. > The founding of Israel resulted from the UN decision on the partition plan This is just historically wrong. First of all, the UN "decision" was actually a nonbinding proposal. Second, the leaders of the Zionist movement were preparing to go to war to create a Jewish state, regardless of what the UN did or did not propose. With the British leaving, there was going to be a power vacuum, and the Zionists were going to seize the opportunity. They had already built up an army (trained by the British) and most of the organs of government (like a legislature, an executive, and ministries handling different state affairs). They weren't waiting for the UN to decide. > The "mass expulsion" was a consequence of the war Zionist paramilitary forces went town by town forcibly expelling the residents. Those who remained were often killed. Many Palestinian civilians heard of these atrocities and fled in advance of Zionist forces. The Palestinian Exodus isn't just something that happened by itself. It was a brutal affair. After the war, the Israelis refused to let the Palestinians return home, and either expropriated (read, "stole") or destroyed their homes and property. If you just go down the list of major Israeli cities nowadays, many (maybe most) of them were formerly Arab cities, which the Zionists "cleansed" in 1948. Lod is the Hebrew name for Lydda, an Arab city where the IDF massacred over 100 civilians, then stripped the rest of the inhabitants of all belongings and drove them out at gunpoint, forcing them to walk on foot through the summer heat to the Jordanian army. After the war, Israel resettled the city with Jewish residents. The Israelis did this sort of thing all over Palestine. > U.S., Australia, New Zealand, and Canada were undeniably created through colonialism. If they had been created by the same methods in the last 75 years, then people would care just as much as they do about the expulsion of the Palestinians. Israel was founded as the colonial era was coming to an end. I would even say that if it weren't for the fact that Israel rules over millions of stateless Palestinians to this day, far fewer people would care. About 40% of the population of greater Israel - the area actually ruled by the Israeli state since 1967 - is subject to martial law and treated worse than dogs. That's why so many people care, and can't just "live with it."

yonisto 2y ago
I know that numbers and dates can seem intimidating, but let me assure you that 1946 came before 1947, which came before 1948. "In his testimony before the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry in January 1946, Einstein stated that he was not in favor of the creation of a Jewish state. However, in a 1947 letter to Indian Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru, he sought to persuade India to support Zionist aims of establishing a Jewish homeland in Palestine." So again, your wishes aren’t aligned with reality. >This is just historically wrong. First of all, the UN "decision" was actually a nonbinding proposal. Second, the leaders of the Zionist movement were preparing to go to war to create a Jewish state, regardless of what the UN did or did not propose… Resolution 181, while not binding, remains a plan that the Arab side rejected, and the Jews accepted. This isn’t speculation; it’s simply what happened. The Arab side not only rejected the plan but also took less than 12 hours to murder seven Jews — four women and three men. Again, this is not speculation; this is actually what happened. The Jews, acting like responsible adults, prepared for the worst-case scenario and, rightly so, prepared an army. Did the U.S. act wrongly when it strengthened its army before any hostilities from Japan? That’s what responsible adults do — they prepare for the future. While we can only speculate on what might have happened to the Jews if the Arabs had won, it’s not speculation that Mohammed Amin al-Husseini cooperated with the Nazis. Between 1941 and 1945, he lived in Berlin and worked as a Nazi propagandist. > Zionist paramilitary forces went town by town forcibly expelling … At the end of the war roughly 20% of Israel population were Arabs, so obviously you are lying when you say that they went “town by town”. Why are you lying? > The Palestinian Exodus … I never said it happened entirely on its own; many people were forced to leave. All I said was that it was (and to an extent still is — just look at Syria) a common practice in war. It happened during the partition of India (affecting 20 million people) and at the end of WWII, when 3 million ethnic Germans were displaced. So, intelligent people, like Einstein, wouldn’t think it unprecedented And as I was saying, and you ignored, all the land that was captured from Israel was ethnically cleansed from Jews. And there was a mass explusion of 900,000 Jews from Arab counties. What I really find it puzzling that you might have some good arguments to the peaceful nature of the Arabs, that they were all loving and caring. 2 most lovely examples: Hadassah medical convoy massacre [0] and Kfar Etzion massacre [1] > 1967 borders ... I'll never defend the settlements it is an abomination. Yet the root cause of the conflict remains the Palestinian refusal to any peace plan that doesn't include the destruction of Israel. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kfar_Etzion_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kfar_Etzion_massacre [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kfar_Etzion_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kfar_Etzion_massacre

aguaviva 2y ago

The U.S., Australia, New Zealand, and Canada were undeniably created through colonialism. Live with it. And genocide, slavery and a whole host of other evils. That doesn't mean we need to accept those evils when they're happening in the present day. Live with it.

yonisto 2y ago
Oh, are you talking about what China is doing to Tibet? Or Russia to Ukraine? Or perhaps you're referring to the suffering of the Uyghurs (China again)? I’m sure the Arabs would appreciate your help in Khuzestan (the Persians are really fucking them there). Or are you implying that you're focused on the 6.7 million refugees forced to flee Syria, and on bringing to justice those responsible for the deaths of 230,000 civilians? Or maybe you're thinking about the raped women in Darfur [0]? There are so many real evils to choose from—not imaginary ones involving Jews. But I know what you’ll end up choosing... the hallmark of anti-Semitism. Live with it. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2024/nov/03/we-will-make-you-have-arab-babies-fears-of-genocide-amid-and-torture-in-sudans-darfur https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2024/nov/03/w...
- DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
  > There are so many real evils to choose from—not imaginary ones involving Jews. But I know what you’ll end up choosing... the hallmark of anti-Semitism. Saying that antisemitism is the reason people care about Israel killing 15,000 Palestinian children is pathetic and contemptible. You're abusing that term.
  - yonisto 2y ago
    15,000 children is an imagenry number. But my point is that as soon as you apply different rules to Jews that is antisemitism. Pure and simple, there is no way around it.
    - aguaviva 2y ago
      As of 13 May 2024, the U.N. has reported that the 35,000 who have died in the conflict includes 7,797 minors, 4,959 women and 1,924 elderly[52] with confirmed identities. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80...