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Their prices are lower because China went all-in on EVs in 2010 (as a country, not just their car companies), whereas US companies are still flirting with ICE a

Their prices are lower because China went all-in on EVs in 2010 (as a country, not just their car companies), whereas US companies are still flirting with ICE and hybrids in 2024, and woe betide any US politician who advocates making it harder to register an ICE vehicle. Labor prices matter, but 14 years of dithering matters more.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Animats 2y ago
> woe betide any US politician who advocates making it harder to register an ICE vehicle. Right. Try to register an ICE car in Beijing.[1] [1] https://www.electrive.com/2024/07/25/beijing-increases-nev-quota-for-the-province/ https://www.electrive.com/2024/07/25/beijing-increases-nev-q...
wakawaka28 2y ago
ICE and hybrids are still essential. Toyota estimated that EVs were going to be unsuitable for 75% of the US market. They aren't idiots. The car companies are making what people actually need. We don't have charging or electric infrastructure to support everyone having an EV, and there are many fire safety issues yet to be resolved for that to work.
- ThePowerOfFuet 2y ago
  They will be unsuitable because of that dithering resulting in, among many other things, poor charging infrastructure.
  - wakawaka28 2y ago
    We don't even produce enough electricity for EVs, and now we are trying to power AI data centers poised to take even more power. It's not just a distribution problem, or a charging facility problem. It is an electricity production problem. The problem of producing power and distributing it alone will likely take 10-20 years to solve. Charging infrastructure is a different beast because it generates huge loads on the power grid in short bursts. Many big charging stations run massive diesel generators and/or have HUGE batteries on site to handle this load. Then there is the fire hazards, toxic mining for batteries, chemical pollution from batteries, and the long charge times. A lot of people live in apartments where home charging will never be feasible. On top of all of this, smart chargers are being designed to "handle" grid issues by turning off charging or even sending your electricity back into the grid which will leave you wondering "Why can't I use my car? It's been on the charger a stupid amount of time now..." In summary, I won't be hopping on the EV bandwagon. The Toyota CEO is right. They have nothing against EVs and would make them if it made sense. Trying to ram EVs down people's throats will waste a lot of money and cause lots of problems. A hybrid is something that actually does work for many people. Hydrogen would also be superior, if they can get the kinks out. Toyota is a pioneer in hydrogen power too.
    - triceratops 2y ago
      > A lot of people live in apartments where home charging will never be feasible People in apartments usually have an assigned parking space, often covered. All you need to provide is a 240v outlet like a clothes dryer uses. Car owners can bring their own chargers. It's more accurate to write that a lot of apartment complexes have simply not tried to install charging because most of their tenants don't have electric cars.
      - wakawaka28 2y ago
        >People in apartments usually have an assigned parking space, often covered. All you need to provide is a 240v outlet like a clothes dryer uses. Car owners can bring their own chargers. That sounds like rich apartments. Most apartments I've seen don't have assigned parking, or adequate parking for guests. Covered parking is extra, even in the hottest parts of the US. Tenants don't have anywhere to plug in. Don't take my word for it. Go take a tour of basic apartments in your area with a realtor and see how many of them can support more than like 5 EV cars. I think you will find that all of them cannot support mass adoption of EVs. You're talking about installing megawatts worth of cabling for EVs that nobody wants as if it's already done or trivial to do. Even if you did it, the additional fire hazard is nothing to scoff at. State Farm (the insurance company) decided that EV charging was too dangerous for its parking garages. Who are we to tell them that they are wrong about the risks? You might be somewhat right about this being a chicken/egg problem. It goes all the way back to the power plants that cannot produce enough power for EVs. This conversion to EVs, if it ever happens, will need decades to unfold. It could easily be disrupted by developments in synthetic chemical power such as hydrogen. In any case, whining about manufacturers and consumers not going in directions that don't work for them is a non-starter. EVs are at present luxury items that only work for people who can shape their lives around charging requirements.
        triceratops 2y ago
        > That sounds like rich apartments I've lived in apartments most of my life, my guy. Literally every apartment I've lived in has had assigned parking or covered parking. That includes some crappy 70s-era housing with paper thin walls, lead paint, and no washer-dryer in the unit. Apartment buildings are generally required to have adequate parking for all residents. That's one of the building codes dense housing advocates want relaxed. > You're talking about installing megawatts worth of cabling for EVs that nobody wants They'd want it if it existed. I think we both agree it's a chicken and egg problem. > Who are we to tell them that they are wrong about the risks? Maybe they just gave a plausible-sounding excuse for ending an employee benefit? > synthetic chemical power such as hydrogen Hydrogen is a lower fire risk than Li batteries? Interesting... > EVs are at present luxury items that only work for people who can shape their lives around charging requirements. For people in single family homes who already own 2 cars, trading one out for an EV is a no brainer. I'm not describing particularly rich households.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

Animats 2y ago

> woe betide any US politician who advocates making it harder to register an ICE vehicle. Right. Try to register an ICE car in Beijing.[1] [1] https://www.electrive.com/2024/07/25/beijing-increases-nev-quota-for-the-province/ https://www.electrive.com/2024/07/25/beijing-increases-nev-q...

wakawaka28 2y ago

ICE and hybrids are still essential. Toyota estimated that EVs were going to be unsuitable for 75% of the US market. They aren't idiots. The car companies are making what people actually need. We don't have charging or electric infrastructure to support everyone having an EV, and there are many fire safety issues yet to be resolved for that to work.

ThePowerOfFuet 2y ago
They will be unsuitable because of that dithering resulting in, among many other things, poor charging infrastructure.
- wakawaka28 2y ago
  We don't even produce enough electricity for EVs, and now we are trying to power AI data centers poised to take even more power. It's not just a distribution problem, or a charging facility problem. It is an electricity production problem. The problem of producing power and distributing it alone will likely take 10-20 years to solve. Charging infrastructure is a different beast because it generates huge loads on the power grid in short bursts. Many big charging stations run massive diesel generators and/or have HUGE batteries on site to handle this load. Then there is the fire hazards, toxic mining for batteries, chemical pollution from batteries, and the long charge times. A lot of people live in apartments where home charging will never be feasible. On top of all of this, smart chargers are being designed to "handle" grid issues by turning off charging or even sending your electricity back into the grid which will leave you wondering "Why can't I use my car? It's been on the charger a stupid amount of time now..." In summary, I won't be hopping on the EV bandwagon. The Toyota CEO is right. They have nothing against EVs and would make them if it made sense. Trying to ram EVs down people's throats will waste a lot of money and cause lots of problems. A hybrid is something that actually does work for many people. Hydrogen would also be superior, if they can get the kinks out. Toyota is a pioneer in hydrogen power too.
  - triceratops 2y ago
    > A lot of people live in apartments where home charging will never be feasible People in apartments usually have an assigned parking space, often covered. All you need to provide is a 240v outlet like a clothes dryer uses. Car owners can bring their own chargers. It's more accurate to write that a lot of apartment complexes have simply not tried to install charging because most of their tenants don't have electric cars.
    - wakawaka28 2y ago
      >People in apartments usually have an assigned parking space, often covered. All you need to provide is a 240v outlet like a clothes dryer uses. Car owners can bring their own chargers. That sounds like rich apartments. Most apartments I've seen don't have assigned parking, or adequate parking for guests. Covered parking is extra, even in the hottest parts of the US. Tenants don't have anywhere to plug in. Don't take my word for it. Go take a tour of basic apartments in your area with a realtor and see how many of them can support more than like 5 EV cars. I think you will find that all of them cannot support mass adoption of EVs. You're talking about installing megawatts worth of cabling for EVs that nobody wants as if it's already done or trivial to do. Even if you did it, the additional fire hazard is nothing to scoff at. State Farm (the insurance company) decided that EV charging was too dangerous for its parking garages. Who are we to tell them that they are wrong about the risks? You might be somewhat right about this being a chicken/egg problem. It goes all the way back to the power plants that cannot produce enough power for EVs. This conversion to EVs, if it ever happens, will need decades to unfold. It could easily be disrupted by developments in synthetic chemical power such as hydrogen. In any case, whining about manufacturers and consumers not going in directions that don't work for them is a non-starter. EVs are at present luxury items that only work for people who can shape their lives around charging requirements.
      - triceratops 2y ago
        > That sounds like rich apartments I've lived in apartments most of my life, my guy. Literally every apartment I've lived in has had assigned parking or covered parking. That includes some crappy 70s-era housing with paper thin walls, lead paint, and no washer-dryer in the unit. Apartment buildings are generally required to have adequate parking for all residents. That's one of the building codes dense housing advocates want relaxed. > You're talking about installing megawatts worth of cabling for EVs that nobody wants They'd want it if it existed. I think we both agree it's a chicken and egg problem. > Who are we to tell them that they are wrong about the risks? Maybe they just gave a plausible-sounding excuse for ending an employee benefit? > synthetic chemical power such as hydrogen Hydrogen is a lower fire risk than Li batteries? Interesting... > EVs are at present luxury items that only work for people who can shape their lives around charging requirements. For people in single family homes who already own 2 cars, trading one out for an EV is a no brainer. I'm not describing particularly rich households.