5 ms·

Yeah, maybe not particular to EVs. I do remember wondering back during the Toyota "uncontrolled acceleration" epidemic why people wouldn't just put the cars in

by cwalv 2y ago

Yeah, maybe not particular to EVs. I do remember wondering back during the Toyota "uncontrolled acceleration" epidemic why people wouldn't just put the cars in neutral

Syonyk 2y ago
Because the vast majority of people driving cars don't have enough of a mental model of the vehicle systems to consider such a thing, especially in a panic situation such as unintended acceleration. If you've driven rattletrap manuals for most of your life, and have worked on cars, rebuilt engines, replaced clutches, rewired things that failed, yeah. That's an obvious conclusion, and I expect some people without doing that will have enough sense of what's going on to consider a drop to neutral (and letting the rev limiter handle keeping the engine intact). But go ask most people, even in technical fields, about the details of a car, and you'll struggle to get much beyond "I press the gas and it goes." You run into this constantly if you're a "car guy" and people ask you questions about why their car isn't going. "It turns over but doesn't start!" can mean anything from "the lights are barely on and nothing happens" to "the starter relay clicks but nothing happens" to what I would consider that to mean, "the engine is rotating under the starter's power but is not engaging in sustained internal combustion." Neutral isn't a thing most people even think about, unfortunately. Park, Drive, Reverse, and some oddball other positions that you don't want to end up in accidentally. Yes, they're useful, and yes, they solve problems, but it's not something that a lot of people would consider. Neither do they seem to consider "Stand on the brakes until the car comes to a stop. No, really, stand on them!" - because I've yet to meet a moderately well maintained vehicle that can't come to a stop with the gas floored and the brakes applied firmly (yes, I've tried, it's a standard test of mine after brake work). But if you only apply partial brake pressure, or have a vacuum brake booster, you only get a few attempts before the booster has lost vacuum (won't get any more, because wide open throttle), and if you've heated up your brakes trying without succeeding, you may very well have no usable brakes left. Passenger car brakes are adequate, but you can easily overheat them and fade them if you try, or boil the fluid, or... etc. Again, not something you'll find many people aware of these days. I wish it were different, but "magic box I put gas into and it goes" is closer to the reality of how many people consider cars these days.
- Arch-TK 2y ago
  Even people who know about the solution might find it drops out of their brain in a moment of panic. I locked myself out of my house recently, and it was only after scaling to the 1st floor, breaking in through an open window, and breaking through a locked interior door (the house had been secured as I was going on a trip, and the only things I forgot were my keys and that window), that I remembered that there was a spare key in my car (which was open). This moment of clarity coincided with the stress going away.
  - Syonyk 2y ago
    Again, it depends a lot on your experience with vehicles. I expect someone who had driven a manual for a long while (or even learned on one but hadn't driven one recently) would be radically more likely to come to "Oh, select neutral" as a solution than someone who has only ever driven automatics. "Neutral" is far more part of "life with a manual" than it is with automatics - I would be willing to bet that a substantial fraction of automatic transmissions have never been deliberately put in neutral. My daily driver has an archaic manual sequential transmission (2005 Ural - sidecar motorcycle sort of thing), and I select neutral at every stoplight I'm likely to be at for a while to avoid wearing the clutch bearings. Also, I have to most of the way double clutch my shifts on that bike (pause in the false neutral between gears) to avoid too much clashing. If I had a runaway throttle condition (certainly possible), I have at least three instant methods I'd use (kill switch, clutch, and rock it into a false neutral). But I've spent most of my driving career with such things, and vehicles that don't have those are a bit of a novelty to me.
    - mkesper 2y ago
      Also my Toyota Auris Hybrid has a weird kind of joystick for changing gear and putting it into neutral position requires holding that position for some time. Gave me an unpleasant (but luckily harmless) event in a car wash where you're required to have power on but use neutral position with automatic gearing.
    - 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
idunnoman1222 2y ago
People that did put their car in neutral didn’t make the news
bsder 2y ago
1) Because panic is a thing. You need training to guarantee correct reaction when things go wrong. Here's an anecdote: I used to drive a car with a standard transmission in Los Angeles. In quite a few places, the parking spots have a "trench" in the front for drainage. So, you can place your car in reverse, release the brake and have your car roll forward quite a bit (the trench makes an even stronger downward slope on a hill that is already pointing downward) before the clutch engages. A bit surprising but nothing that weird for someone who drives a stick. Now, have that sequence happen to someone driving a car with an automatic transmission. They shifted to reverse, the car is rolling forward more than they expect and is on a hill, they hit the gas to arrest the roll, the transmission engages and the car shoots in reverse. Pray that there isn't anything close behind them or they're going to run over a pedestrian, put their car through a wall, etc. 2) Because the majority of the people who had "uncontrolled acceleration" were old. The vast majority of the cases were very likely driver error by older drivers who had incorrect habits ingrained. Toyota probably would have won the case if this was the only issue. Alas, Toyota lost the case because their processes for safety were such a complete shitshow that they were going to get destroyed in court.
- jval43 2y ago
  EVs (and hybrids) solve that problem so elegantly. They have so much torque at a standstill that hill assist is a given and going up or down a hill slowly forwards or reverse is not an issue. Absolute gamechanger. Not sure what you mean by standard transmission, but in a manual you'd also have to use the parking brake while using the clutch to go up in reverse. Otherwise the motor would stall, or you'd roll forwards.
aaronmdjones 2y ago
This is why I'm so glad I have a manual transmission with a physical ignition key. Car starts accelerating out of control? You have several options that you can try in no particular order (except the first one, which should always be tried first). Lift your primary foot to confirm you're not accidentally pressing the accelerator instead of the brake (this is surprisingly common). Dump the clutch with the other foot at the same time. If the engine is still going nuts, shift to neutral and/or turn the ignition off (DON'T remove the key yet; that will lock the steering wheel, which is a bad idea when you're still moving). Coast to a stop somewhere safe; your brakes will also still work for a while. You won't have power steering, but you won't need it. Remove the key -- this WILL kill the engine (if you didn't already switch off). You're done. My driving instructor did this to me in an empty supermarket car park. Then he did it again until I got the hang of it. It's a valuable learning experience.
myself248 2y ago
I'm still not sure whether it applies to this case, but on the Prius at least, "neutral" is a software concept. There is no physical linkage from the drive mode selector ("gearshift") to anything mechanical, and there are no mechanical components that could uncouple the powerplant from the wheels. Putting the powertrain in neutral is accomplished by removing torque commands from the electric motors, at which time the engine and wheels can free-spin. At the time this was in the news, I was never able to find a coherent explanation of whether any such bit-flip affecting some piece of software on some module, would also inhibit the interpretation and implementation of a neutral drive mode selection.
thescriptkiddie 2y ago
I feel like if you can't come up with the idea to try pushing in the clutch, shifting into neutral, turning off the key, or applying the handbrake within ten seconds you should have your license taken away. and if you design a car where those things wouldn't work you should go to prison.
- rocqua 2y ago
  This was on automatic shifting cars.
  - thescriptkiddie 2y ago
    I don't have a lot of experience with automatic shifting cars, but I believe that they still have neutral, keys, and handbrakes. If they don't then their designers should go to prison.

by cwalv 2y ago

Yeah, maybe not particular to EVs. I do remember wondering back during the Toyota "uncontrolled acceleration" epidemic why people wouldn't just put the cars in neutral

Syonyk 2y ago

Because the vast majority of people driving cars don't have enough of a mental model of the vehicle systems to consider such a thing, especially in a panic situation such as unintended acceleration. If you've driven rattletrap manuals for most of your life, and have worked on cars, rebuilt engines, replaced clutches, rewired things that failed, yeah. That's an obvious conclusion, and I expect some people without doing that will have enough sense of what's going on to consider a drop to neutral (and letting the rev limiter handle keeping the engine intact). But go ask most people, even in technical fields, about the details of a car, and you'll struggle to get much beyond "I press the gas and it goes." You run into this constantly if you're a "car guy" and people ask you questions about why their car isn't going. "It turns over but doesn't start!" can mean anything from "the lights are barely on and nothing happens" to "the starter relay clicks but nothing happens" to what I would consider that to mean, "the engine is rotating under the starter's power but is not engaging in sustained internal combustion." Neutral isn't a thing most people even think about, unfortunately. Park, Drive, Reverse, and some oddball other positions that you don't want to end up in accidentally. Yes, they're useful, and yes, they solve problems, but it's not something that a lot of people would consider. Neither do they seem to consider "Stand on the brakes until the car comes to a stop. No, really, stand on them!" - because I've yet to meet a moderately well maintained vehicle that can't come to a stop with the gas floored and the brakes applied firmly (yes, I've tried, it's a standard test of mine after brake work). But if you only apply partial brake pressure, or have a vacuum brake booster, you only get a few attempts before the booster has lost vacuum (won't get any more, because wide open throttle), and if you've heated up your brakes trying without succeeding, you may very well have no usable brakes left. Passenger car brakes are adequate, but you can easily overheat them and fade them if you try, or boil the fluid, or... etc. Again, not something you'll find many people aware of these days. I wish it were different, but "magic box I put gas into and it goes" is closer to the reality of how many people consider cars these days.

Arch-TK 2y ago
Even people who know about the solution might find it drops out of their brain in a moment of panic. I locked myself out of my house recently, and it was only after scaling to the 1st floor, breaking in through an open window, and breaking through a locked interior door (the house had been secured as I was going on a trip, and the only things I forgot were my keys and that window), that I remembered that there was a spare key in my car (which was open). This moment of clarity coincided with the stress going away.
- Syonyk 2y ago
  Again, it depends a lot on your experience with vehicles. I expect someone who had driven a manual for a long while (or even learned on one but hadn't driven one recently) would be radically more likely to come to "Oh, select neutral" as a solution than someone who has only ever driven automatics. "Neutral" is far more part of "life with a manual" than it is with automatics - I would be willing to bet that a substantial fraction of automatic transmissions have never been deliberately put in neutral. My daily driver has an archaic manual sequential transmission (2005 Ural - sidecar motorcycle sort of thing), and I select neutral at every stoplight I'm likely to be at for a while to avoid wearing the clutch bearings. Also, I have to most of the way double clutch my shifts on that bike (pause in the false neutral between gears) to avoid too much clashing. If I had a runaway throttle condition (certainly possible), I have at least three instant methods I'd use (kill switch, clutch, and rock it into a false neutral). But I've spent most of my driving career with such things, and vehicles that don't have those are a bit of a novelty to me.
  - mkesper 2y ago
    Also my Toyota Auris Hybrid has a weird kind of joystick for changing gear and putting it into neutral position requires holding that position for some time. Gave me an unpleasant (but luckily harmless) event in a car wash where you're required to have power on but use neutral position with automatic gearing.
  - 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago

idunnoman1222 2y ago

People that did put their car in neutral didn’t make the news

bsder 2y ago

1) Because panic is a thing. You need training to guarantee correct reaction when things go wrong. Here's an anecdote: I used to drive a car with a standard transmission in Los Angeles. In quite a few places, the parking spots have a "trench" in the front for drainage. So, you can place your car in reverse, release the brake and have your car roll forward quite a bit (the trench makes an even stronger downward slope on a hill that is already pointing downward) before the clutch engages. A bit surprising but nothing that weird for someone who drives a stick. Now, have that sequence happen to someone driving a car with an automatic transmission. They shifted to reverse, the car is rolling forward more than they expect and is on a hill, they hit the gas to arrest the roll, the transmission engages and the car shoots in reverse. Pray that there isn't anything close behind them or they're going to run over a pedestrian, put their car through a wall, etc. 2) Because the majority of the people who had "uncontrolled acceleration" were old. The vast majority of the cases were very likely driver error by older drivers who had incorrect habits ingrained. Toyota probably would have won the case if this was the only issue. Alas, Toyota lost the case because their processes for safety were such a complete shitshow that they were going to get destroyed in court.

jval43 2y ago
EVs (and hybrids) solve that problem so elegantly. They have so much torque at a standstill that hill assist is a given and going up or down a hill slowly forwards or reverse is not an issue. Absolute gamechanger. Not sure what you mean by standard transmission, but in a manual you'd also have to use the parking brake while using the clutch to go up in reverse. Otherwise the motor would stall, or you'd roll forwards.

aaronmdjones 2y ago

This is why I'm so glad I have a manual transmission with a physical ignition key. Car starts accelerating out of control? You have several options that you can try in no particular order (except the first one, which should always be tried first). Lift your primary foot to confirm you're not accidentally pressing the accelerator instead of the brake (this is surprisingly common). Dump the clutch with the other foot at the same time. If the engine is still going nuts, shift to neutral and/or turn the ignition off (DON'T remove the key yet; that will lock the steering wheel, which is a bad idea when you're still moving). Coast to a stop somewhere safe; your brakes will also still work for a while. You won't have power steering, but you won't need it. Remove the key -- this WILL kill the engine (if you didn't already switch off). You're done. My driving instructor did this to me in an empty supermarket car park. Then he did it again until I got the hang of it. It's a valuable learning experience.

myself248 2y ago

I'm still not sure whether it applies to this case, but on the Prius at least, "neutral" is a software concept. There is no physical linkage from the drive mode selector ("gearshift") to anything mechanical, and there are no mechanical components that could uncouple the powerplant from the wheels. Putting the powertrain in neutral is accomplished by removing torque commands from the electric motors, at which time the engine and wheels can free-spin. At the time this was in the news, I was never able to find a coherent explanation of whether any such bit-flip affecting some piece of software on some module, would also inhibit the interpretation and implementation of a neutral drive mode selection.

thescriptkiddie 2y ago

I feel like if you can't come up with the idea to try pushing in the clutch, shifting into neutral, turning off the key, or applying the handbrake within ten seconds you should have your license taken away. and if you design a car where those things wouldn't work you should go to prison.

rocqua 2y ago
This was on automatic shifting cars.
- thescriptkiddie 2y ago
  I don't have a lot of experience with automatic shifting cars, but I believe that they still have neutral, keys, and handbrakes. If they don't then their designers should go to prison.