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He paid $11B in taxes in 2022, from what I could find. I don't see the US activity working to give that up, which would also send his multiple companies, some o

He paid $11B in taxes in 2022, from what I could find. I don't see the US activity working to give that up, which would also send his multiple companies, some of which the government regularly does contracts with, to some other country. If they were to revoke it, I'm sure it would be a technicality and they'd give it right back to him.

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
[flagged]
- belter 2y ago
  Maybe they are just following Musk recommendation: "People who entered the country illegally should not be allowed to stay" - https://youtu.be/ZMQ2r3ofn80?t=3 https://youtu.be/ZMQ2r3ofn80?t=3
  - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
    He entered legally. He had a valid student visa. The allegation is that he worked while on his student visa, which is a restriction that does not really make sense anyways. Regardless, the point about stopping illegal immigration is that we want skilled workers who contribute to society to stay, and we want to know who is entering so you don’t have bad actors like cartel members or CCP spies coming in. Obviously, Elon Musk has contributed more than virtually every other American and is a good actor. > Even if USCIS had solid evidence that Musk had broken the law, it would, experts say, not handle the matter administratively, but rather could refer it to a US attorney’s office. Prosecutors, who have broad discretion to take up or decline cases, could then proceed, or not, as they saw fit. Most US attorneys were appointed by Biden. So if they take this case up, it will be another obvious example of authoritarian lawfare.
    - slater 2y ago
      > Obviously, Elon Musk has contributed more than virtually every other American and is a good actor Are you taking part in a "most citations needed in one sentence" competition?
      - s1artibartfast 2y ago
        Im not a right winger, but I think Musk has done more good for America than any other citizen in living memory. His work with Tesla advanced EV adoption in the US by many years and has also made grid scale battery storage a reality. SpaceX helped the US regain our lead in space infrastructure and brought internet to millions. IF not for Musk, there would be a million more gas cars on the road, our grid would use more carbon, and we would probably still be launching our astronauts on Russian rockets.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > Biden. So if they take this case up, it will be another obvious example of authoritarian lawfare Your comment is much stronger without this.
      - archagon 2y ago
        Seriously. Authoritarian lawfare? You mean against the guy who literally tried to steal the last election?
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > Authoritarian lawfare? You mean against the guy who literally tried to steal the last election? Who are you responding to? OP referred to Biden as a purveyor of authoritarian lawfare. Which, given the term is flexibly defined, is both true for everyone and always falsifiable. It's a stupid statement that follows an otherwise mostly thougtful comment. (Negating the "obviously...Musk...is a good actor" bit, but I'm not here to shit on faith.)
        archagon 2y ago
        Sorry, I was doubling down and responding to blackeyeblitzar's comment. When people refer to Biden enacting "lawfare," it's frequently a right wing talking point used to discredit Jack Smith's cases against Trump.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > When people refer to Biden enacting "lawfare," it's usually a right wing talking point used to discredit Jack Smith's cases against Trump Oh, didn't know.
        EasyMark 2y ago
        I don’t think that anyone who says following up on a coup attempt and constant attempts to overturn a presidential election as “law fare” is going to be open to your arguments. All one merely has to look at how many people around T went to jail for him, and somehow he managed to offload responsibility to them.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - maximinus_thrax 2y ago
      > He entered legally. He had a valid student visa. https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2018/aug/24/kevin-mccarthy/mostly-true-visa-overstays-account-half-all-people/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2018/aug/24/kevin-mcca...
      - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
        This wasn’t an overstay. He allegedly worked while on a student visa. But he had a valid visa then and after.
- oldpersonintx 2y ago
  [dead]
- archagon 2y ago
  People are tired of wealth superseding all law, precedent, and decorum.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - EasyMark 2y ago
    I strongly agree. Feds make examples of companies all the time, I don’t know why we would not do the same with a billionaire. I’m sure -many- hardworking people have been kicked out of the country for going against terms of their work/student/visitor visa, I don’t know why EM should be treated different. I thought justice was supposed to be blind.
    - archagon 2y ago
      The disguising part is that he’s rubbing this in our faces while simultaneously relishing his party’s hardline stance on illegal immigration. He knows he’s above the law. He does not care about what the plebs think.
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      Do you have any numbers on how many people have lost their citizenship for working on a student visa? Has it ever happened in the history of the USA? Per this report, an average of 11 people are denaturalized per year, and it is reserved for terrorists and war criminals [1] Why does everyone want to jump to conclusions about special treatment in the total absence of data? It is starting with the injustice one thinks is happening and presuming facts that make it true. >Historically, the U.S. has reserved denaturalization proceedings for individuals who committed egregious crimes, including people who were found to be war criminals and terrorist funders. The most notable of those cases involved Nazi war criminals. For example, the federal government pursued and obtained the denaturalization of John (Ivan) Kalymon of Troy, Michigan in 2007 and his removal in 2011. >https://immigrationforum.org/article/fact-sheet-on-denaturalization/ https://immigrationforum.org/article/fact-sheet-on-denatural...
- af3d 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > want to censor the news, force companies to hire unqualified people for the sake of "equity", lock up politicians they do not like, and of course anyone who disagrees with them gets labeled, doxed, or even worse, etc, etc. You’re cherry picking extreme policies that aren’t backed by most Americans, nor even a major plurality of either major party. > over 50% of Democrats polled said that they were disappointed that the shooter failed Partisanship drives stupidity. 70% of Republicans don’t believe the last election [1]. A fifth explicitly back violent insurrection [2]. We have a republic, not pure democracy, because the Founders weren’t idiots. [1] https://www.politifact.com/article/2022/jun/14/most-republicans-falsely-believe-trumps-stolen-ele/ https://www.politifact.com/article/2022/jun/14/most-republic... [2] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-poll-election-white-house-republicans-b2632854.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politic...
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      To be fair to the parent post, being a self proclaimed anti-fascists isn't a position held by most Americans. It seems they mean "anti-fascist" in terms of identity and ideology (aka antifa), not just holding the general sentiment that fascism is bad.
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > seems they mean "anti-fascist" in terms of identity and ideology (aka antifa) Fair enough. I’d still be surprised if a majority of those who identify with antifa support each of those policies. Maybe one. But most people support at least one stupid policy. It’s why dictatorship doesn’t work.
        s1artibartfast 2y ago
        In my experience, there is significant cross over between antifa and communists seeking a dictatorship of the proletariat. That said, I agree the policies listed are more than your typical authoritarianism.
- al_borland 2y ago
  Reddit turned on Musk as soon as he started nearing the top of the Forbes list. They rooted for him to be successful, and when he was, they hated him for it. The reductionist, "rich == bad", thinking on Reddit was one of the many things that drove me away from the site.
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> don't see the US activity working to give that up It’s the law. Which means it’s an option. My takeaway is the law should be amended to include a statute of limitations. (More broadly, I'm not thrilled about how comfortable both parties have become around talking of stripping citizenship.)
- archagon 2y ago
  I’ve never heard of any Democratic party leaders talk about stripping citizenship. Did I miss something?
  - AnimalMuppet 2y ago
    For that matter, I haven't heard any Republican party leaders taking about stripping Musk's citizenship, either.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > I haven't heard any Republican party leaders taking about stripping Musk's citizenship, either DHS established a "denaturalisation task force" in 2018. Stripping Americans of citizenship
      - AnimalMuppet 2y ago
        Sure. Did they (or anyone) say they were going to strip Musk of citizenship? (al_borland's original claim was specifically about Musk's citizenship, not citizenship in general.)
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        No, nobody real is talking about taking Musk’s citizenship. Hell, he hasn’t even lost his security clearance. Those are granted on the basis of executive order. It’s at the pleasure of the President. Nobody is going after Musk.
      - 2y ago
EasyMark 2y ago
The law is the law. He has no right to not be subject to the same laws as you or I. If we’ve done the same to other immigrants, it’s only fair that once the authorities are made aware of it that they investigate. No one should be able to buy themselves a carve out from the law. If the precedent is that nothing has really done about it in the past then do that as well, but no reason he should be above the law.
- root_axis 2y ago
  > No one should be able to buy themselves a carve out from the law Yet this is the reality as far back as I can remember. The gravity of that much wealth inevitably distorts the fabric of the legal system. We've seen stuff like this play out over and over again among rich politicians, celebrities, CEOs etc. We also see it with wealthy businesses that cynically violate the law based on a favorable cost benefit analysis, not to mention their pervasive lobbying that literally defines the law. Even among the less affluent classes, we still see a stratification in practical impunity to break the law since e.g. it's a lot more tempting to speed if a speeding ticket is as trivial as a plane ticket. In our system, everything has a price. However, if Musk was an illegal immigrant (yes, violating the terms of your visa is illegal, and it's the most common form of illegal immigration) I do think Musk's hypocrisy is quite disgusting. I can admit that if he were more humble and respectful of the immigrant experience he shares with those he maligns, I would be more sympathetic to him.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  >If we’ve done the same to other immigrants... I dont think citizenship has ever been taken away from another immigrant 30 years after the fact for working on a student visa. There have only been a several hundred denaturalized immigrants in the history of the US, and they were for things like false identity with outstanding deportation orders.
tim333 2y ago
True, no way he gets deported but it's kind of ironic given him going on about the need to deport other illegal immigrants. I think the moral is US immigration is a mess and needs an overhaul.

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago

[flagged]

belter 2y ago
Maybe they are just following Musk recommendation: "People who entered the country illegally should not be allowed to stay" - https://youtu.be/ZMQ2r3ofn80?t=3 https://youtu.be/ZMQ2r3ofn80?t=3
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  He entered legally. He had a valid student visa. The allegation is that he worked while on his student visa, which is a restriction that does not really make sense anyways. Regardless, the point about stopping illegal immigration is that we want skilled workers who contribute to society to stay, and we want to know who is entering so you don’t have bad actors like cartel members or CCP spies coming in. Obviously, Elon Musk has contributed more than virtually every other American and is a good actor. > Even if USCIS had solid evidence that Musk had broken the law, it would, experts say, not handle the matter administratively, but rather could refer it to a US attorney’s office. Prosecutors, who have broad discretion to take up or decline cases, could then proceed, or not, as they saw fit. Most US attorneys were appointed by Biden. So if they take this case up, it will be another obvious example of authoritarian lawfare.
  - slater 2y ago
    > Obviously, Elon Musk has contributed more than virtually every other American and is a good actor Are you taking part in a "most citations needed in one sentence" competition?
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      Im not a right winger, but I think Musk has done more good for America than any other citizen in living memory. His work with Tesla advanced EV adoption in the US by many years and has also made grid scale battery storage a reality. SpaceX helped the US regain our lead in space infrastructure and brought internet to millions. IF not for Musk, there would be a million more gas cars on the road, our grid would use more carbon, and we would probably still be launching our astronauts on Russian rockets.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > Biden. So if they take this case up, it will be another obvious example of authoritarian lawfare Your comment is much stronger without this.
    - archagon 2y ago
      Seriously. Authoritarian lawfare? You mean against the guy who literally tried to steal the last election?
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > Authoritarian lawfare? You mean against the guy who literally tried to steal the last election? Who are you responding to? OP referred to Biden as a purveyor of authoritarian lawfare. Which, given the term is flexibly defined, is both true for everyone and always falsifiable. It's a stupid statement that follows an otherwise mostly thougtful comment. (Negating the "obviously...Musk...is a good actor" bit, but I'm not here to shit on faith.)
        archagon 2y ago
        Sorry, I was doubling down and responding to blackeyeblitzar's comment. When people refer to Biden enacting "lawfare," it's frequently a right wing talking point used to discredit Jack Smith's cases against Trump.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > When people refer to Biden enacting "lawfare," it's usually a right wing talking point used to discredit Jack Smith's cases against Trump Oh, didn't know.
      - EasyMark 2y ago
        I don’t think that anyone who says following up on a coup attempt and constant attempts to overturn a presidential election as “law fare” is going to be open to your arguments. All one merely has to look at how many people around T went to jail for him, and somehow he managed to offload responsibility to them.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - maximinus_thrax 2y ago
    > He entered legally. He had a valid student visa. https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2018/aug/24/kevin-mccarthy/mostly-true-visa-overstays-account-half-all-people/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2018/aug/24/kevin-mcca...
    - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
      This wasn’t an overstay. He allegedly worked while on a student visa. But he had a valid visa then and after.
oldpersonintx 2y ago
[dead]
archagon 2y ago
People are tired of wealth superseding all law, precedent, and decorum.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- EasyMark 2y ago
  I strongly agree. Feds make examples of companies all the time, I don’t know why we would not do the same with a billionaire. I’m sure -many- hardworking people have been kicked out of the country for going against terms of their work/student/visitor visa, I don’t know why EM should be treated different. I thought justice was supposed to be blind.
  - archagon 2y ago
    The disguising part is that he’s rubbing this in our faces while simultaneously relishing his party’s hardline stance on illegal immigration. He knows he’s above the law. He does not care about what the plebs think.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    Do you have any numbers on how many people have lost their citizenship for working on a student visa? Has it ever happened in the history of the USA? Per this report, an average of 11 people are denaturalized per year, and it is reserved for terrorists and war criminals [1] Why does everyone want to jump to conclusions about special treatment in the total absence of data? It is starting with the injustice one thinks is happening and presuming facts that make it true. >Historically, the U.S. has reserved denaturalization proceedings for individuals who committed egregious crimes, including people who were found to be war criminals and terrorist funders. The most notable of those cases involved Nazi war criminals. For example, the federal government pursued and obtained the denaturalization of John (Ivan) Kalymon of Troy, Michigan in 2007 and his removal in 2011. >https://immigrationforum.org/article/fact-sheet-on-denaturalization/ https://immigrationforum.org/article/fact-sheet-on-denatural...
af3d 2y ago
[flagged]
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > want to censor the news, force companies to hire unqualified people for the sake of "equity", lock up politicians they do not like, and of course anyone who disagrees with them gets labeled, doxed, or even worse, etc, etc. You’re cherry picking extreme policies that aren’t backed by most Americans, nor even a major plurality of either major party. > over 50% of Democrats polled said that they were disappointed that the shooter failed Partisanship drives stupidity. 70% of Republicans don’t believe the last election [1]. A fifth explicitly back violent insurrection [2]. We have a republic, not pure democracy, because the Founders weren’t idiots. [1] https://www.politifact.com/article/2022/jun/14/most-republicans-falsely-believe-trumps-stolen-ele/ https://www.politifact.com/article/2022/jun/14/most-republic... [2] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-poll-election-white-house-republicans-b2632854.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politic...
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    To be fair to the parent post, being a self proclaimed anti-fascists isn't a position held by most Americans. It seems they mean "anti-fascist" in terms of identity and ideology (aka antifa), not just holding the general sentiment that fascism is bad.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > seems they mean "anti-fascist" in terms of identity and ideology (aka antifa) Fair enough. I’d still be surprised if a majority of those who identify with antifa support each of those policies. Maybe one. But most people support at least one stupid policy. It’s why dictatorship doesn’t work.
      - s1artibartfast 2y ago
        In my experience, there is significant cross over between antifa and communists seeking a dictatorship of the proletariat. That said, I agree the policies listed are more than your typical authoritarianism.
al_borland 2y ago
Reddit turned on Musk as soon as he started nearing the top of the Forbes list. They rooted for him to be successful, and when he was, they hated him for it. The reductionist, "rich == bad", thinking on Reddit was one of the many things that drove me away from the site.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> don't see the US activity working to give that up It’s the law. Which means it’s an option. My takeaway is the law should be amended to include a statute of limitations. (More broadly, I'm not thrilled about how comfortable both parties have become around talking of stripping citizenship.)

archagon 2y ago
I’ve never heard of any Democratic party leaders talk about stripping citizenship. Did I miss something?
- AnimalMuppet 2y ago
  For that matter, I haven't heard any Republican party leaders taking about stripping Musk's citizenship, either.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > I haven't heard any Republican party leaders taking about stripping Musk's citizenship, either DHS established a "denaturalisation task force" in 2018. Stripping Americans of citizenship
    - AnimalMuppet 2y ago
      Sure. Did they (or anyone) say they were going to strip Musk of citizenship? (al_borland's original claim was specifically about Musk's citizenship, not citizenship in general.)
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        No, nobody real is talking about taking Musk’s citizenship. Hell, he hasn’t even lost his security clearance. Those are granted on the basis of executive order. It’s at the pleasure of the President. Nobody is going after Musk.
    - 2y ago

EasyMark 2y ago

The law is the law. He has no right to not be subject to the same laws as you or I. If we’ve done the same to other immigrants, it’s only fair that once the authorities are made aware of it that they investigate. No one should be able to buy themselves a carve out from the law. If the precedent is that nothing has really done about it in the past then do that as well, but no reason he should be above the law.

root_axis 2y ago
> No one should be able to buy themselves a carve out from the law Yet this is the reality as far back as I can remember. The gravity of that much wealth inevitably distorts the fabric of the legal system. We've seen stuff like this play out over and over again among rich politicians, celebrities, CEOs etc. We also see it with wealthy businesses that cynically violate the law based on a favorable cost benefit analysis, not to mention their pervasive lobbying that literally defines the law. Even among the less affluent classes, we still see a stratification in practical impunity to break the law since e.g. it's a lot more tempting to speed if a speeding ticket is as trivial as a plane ticket. In our system, everything has a price. However, if Musk was an illegal immigrant (yes, violating the terms of your visa is illegal, and it's the most common form of illegal immigration) I do think Musk's hypocrisy is quite disgusting. I can admit that if he were more humble and respectful of the immigrant experience he shares with those he maligns, I would be more sympathetic to him.
s1artibartfast 2y ago
>If we’ve done the same to other immigrants... I dont think citizenship has ever been taken away from another immigrant 30 years after the fact for working on a student visa. There have only been a several hundred denaturalized immigrants in the history of the US, and they were for things like false identity with outstanding deportation orders.

tim333 2y ago

True, no way he gets deported but it's kind of ironic given him going on about the need to deport other illegal immigrants. I think the moral is US immigration is a mess and needs an overhaul.