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> Direct sockets will have their uses for compatibility with existing applications... In fact runtimes like Node, Deno, Cloudflare Workers, Fastly Compute, Bun

> Direct sockets will have their uses for compatibility with existing applications... In fact runtimes like Node, Deno, Cloudflare Workers, Fastly Compute, Bun et al run JS on servers, and will benefit from standardization of such features. [WICG] aims to provide a space for JavaScript runtimes to collaborate on API interoperability. We focus on documenting and improving interoperability of web platform APIs across runtimes (especially non-browser ones). https://wintercg.org/ https://wintercg.org/

noduerme 2y ago
Can you explain further... how does this improve upon websockets and socketIO for node?
- arlort 2y ago
  Without a middleman you can only use web socket to connect to an http server. So, for instance if I want to connect to an mqtt server from a webpage I have to use a server that supports websocket endpoint. With direct sockets I could connect to any server using any protocol
synctext 2y ago
This slowly alters the essence of The Internet, due to the permissionless nature of running any self-organising system like Bittorrent and Bitcoin. This is NOT in Android, just isolated Web Apps at desktops at this stage[0]. The "direct socket access" creep moves forward again. First, IoT without any security standards. Now Web Apps. With direct socket access to TCP/UDP you can build anything! You loose the constraint of JS servers, costly WebRTC server hosting, and lack of listen sockets feature in WebRTC DataChannel. <self promotion>NAT puncturing is already solved in our lab, even for mobile 4G/5G. This might bring back the cyberpunk dreams of Peer2Peer... In our lab we bought 40+ SIM cards for the big EU 4G/5G networks and got the carrier-grade NAT puncturing working[1]. Demo blends 4G/5G puncturing, TikTok-style streaming, and Bittorrent content backend. Reading the docs, these "isolated" Web Apps can even do SMTP STARTTLS, IMAP STARTTLS and POP STLS. wow! [0] https://github.com/WICG/direct-sockets/blob/main/docs/explainer.md#security-considerations https://github.com/WICG/direct-sockets/blob/main/docs/explai... [1] https://repository.tudelft.nl/record/uuid:cf27f6d4-ca0b-4e20-be0e-638a7bcdcd9a https://repository.tudelft.nl/record/uuid:cf27f6d4-ca0b-4e20...
- Uptrenda 2y ago
  Hello, I wanted to say I've been working on a peer-to-peer library and I'm very much interested in your work on symmetric NAT punching (which as far as I know is novel.) Your work is exactly what I was looking for. Good job on the research. It will have far-reaching applications. I'd be interesting in implementing your algorithms depending on the difficulty some time. Are they patented or is this something anyone can use? Here's a link to an over-view for my system: https://p2pd.readthedocs.io/en/latest/p2p/connect.html https://p2pd.readthedocs.io/en/latest/p2p/connect.html My system can't handle symmetric --- symmetric. But could in theory handle other types of NATs ---- symmetric. Depending on the exact NAT types and delta types.
  - ignoramous 2y ago
    I read OP's thesis (which focuses on CGNAT), and one of the techniques discussed therein is similar to Tailscale's: https://tailscale.com/blog/how-nat-traversal-works https://tailscale.com/blog/how-nat-traversal-works ...with the help of the birthday paradox. Rather than open 1 port on the hard side and have the easy side try 65,535 possibilities, let’s open, say, 256 ports on the hard side (by having 256 sockets sending to the easy side's ip:port), and have the easy side probe target ports at random.
    - Uptrenda 2y ago
      this comment section has been the most useful and interesting thing I've seen for my own work in a very long time. And completely random, too. Really not bad. To me this represents the godly nature of this website. Where you have extremely well informed people posting high quality technical comments that would be hard to find anywhere else on the web. +100 to all contributors.
    - synctext 2y ago
      indeed, Tailscale was the first to realise this. We added specific 4G and 5G mobile features. these carrier-grade boxes have often non-random port allocations. "By relying on provider-aware IPv4 range allocations, provider-aware port prediction heuristics, high bandwidth probing, and the birthday paradox we can successfully bypass even symmetric NATs."

noduerme 2y ago

Can you explain further... how does this improve upon websockets and socketIO for node?

arlort 2y ago
Without a middleman you can only use web socket to connect to an http server. So, for instance if I want to connect to an mqtt server from a webpage I have to use a server that supports websocket endpoint. With direct sockets I could connect to any server using any protocol

synctext 2y ago

This slowly alters the essence of The Internet, due to the permissionless nature of running any self-organising system like Bittorrent and Bitcoin. This is NOT in Android, just isolated Web Apps at desktops at this stage[0]. The "direct socket access" creep moves forward again. First, IoT without any security standards. Now Web Apps. With direct socket access to TCP/UDP you can build anything! You loose the constraint of JS servers, costly WebRTC server hosting, and lack of listen sockets feature in WebRTC DataChannel. <self promotion>NAT puncturing is already solved in our lab, even for mobile 4G/5G. This might bring back the cyberpunk dreams of Peer2Peer... In our lab we bought 40+ SIM cards for the big EU 4G/5G networks and got the carrier-grade NAT puncturing working[1]. Demo blends 4G/5G puncturing, TikTok-style streaming, and Bittorrent content backend. Reading the docs, these "isolated" Web Apps can even do SMTP STARTTLS, IMAP STARTTLS and POP STLS. wow! [0] https://github.com/WICG/direct-sockets/blob/main/docs/explainer.md#security-considerations https://github.com/WICG/direct-sockets/blob/main/docs/explai... [1] https://repository.tudelft.nl/record/uuid:cf27f6d4-ca0b-4e20-be0e-638a7bcdcd9a https://repository.tudelft.nl/record/uuid:cf27f6d4-ca0b-4e20...

Uptrenda 2y ago
Hello, I wanted to say I've been working on a peer-to-peer library and I'm very much interested in your work on symmetric NAT punching (which as far as I know is novel.) Your work is exactly what I was looking for. Good job on the research. It will have far-reaching applications. I'd be interesting in implementing your algorithms depending on the difficulty some time. Are they patented or is this something anyone can use? Here's a link to an over-view for my system: https://p2pd.readthedocs.io/en/latest/p2p/connect.html https://p2pd.readthedocs.io/en/latest/p2p/connect.html My system can't handle symmetric --- symmetric. But could in theory handle other types of NATs ---- symmetric. Depending on the exact NAT types and delta types.
- ignoramous 2y ago
  I read OP's thesis (which focuses on CGNAT), and one of the techniques discussed therein is similar to Tailscale's: https://tailscale.com/blog/how-nat-traversal-works https://tailscale.com/blog/how-nat-traversal-works ...with the help of the birthday paradox. Rather than open 1 port on the hard side and have the easy side try 65,535 possibilities, let’s open, say, 256 ports on the hard side (by having 256 sockets sending to the easy side's ip:port), and have the easy side probe target ports at random.
  - Uptrenda 2y ago
    this comment section has been the most useful and interesting thing I've seen for my own work in a very long time. And completely random, too. Really not bad. To me this represents the godly nature of this website. Where you have extremely well informed people posting high quality technical comments that would be hard to find anywhere else on the web. +100 to all contributors.
  - synctext 2y ago
    indeed, Tailscale was the first to realise this. We added specific 4G and 5G mobile features. these carrier-grade boxes have often non-random port allocations. "By relying on provider-aware IPv4 range allocations, provider-aware port prediction heuristics, high bandwidth probing, and the birthday paradox we can successfully bypass even symmetric NATs."