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> Patented ideas he stole Things that were patented that he then stole, or things he patented that other people really originated at their core? Former is sill

> Patented ideas he stole Things that were patented that he then stole, or things he patented that other people really originated at their core? Former is silly, but latter: Lightbulb, xray, moving camera, phonograph are some things that were originated by others and refined by him, but that are often completely attributed to him. Again, his contributions are not insignificant, but highly misleading in the spirit of the topic regarding China and the trope that they can’t invent new ideas but that America did. All ideas take lots of collaboration so it’s just wrong to make those kinds of statements. > won all cases You mean the patent office awarded him patents, not that he is the undisputed originator of the idea, surely? The legal complexity and resource hungry nature of the patent system makes this a pretty moot point. Even today, patents are largely pointless if you can’t wage a long drawn out legal battle. The robber baron era was not a more just time. Building the first electrical power grid is quite significant, yes, but still irrelevant, because the core tech is still non American. Many innovations must be made to take those foreign ideas and implement them, yes, but how is that different from what’s going on in China? The original claim is that they don’t invent anything, only copy. Its a common narrative that’s not only an untrue cope, but also blinds people to the fact that they are on a trajectory to surpass in innovation, in addition to implementation. And on the bandsaw, it’s very international as well.

WalterBright 2y ago
You might want to read a biography of Edison, not just a summary on the web. The one by Josephson is good, and goes into considerable detail. Edison did not invent a glowing wire, nor did he invent electric arc lamps. However, both of those were useless as light bulbs. Existing lightbulbs at the time were low voltage, high current. The lightbulbs didn't last very long, and so were useless. They also consumed enormous amounts of power. Edison's innovation was to go with high voltage, low current. This cut the power consumption way down. The next problem he had was the filament burning up. This problem he managed to solve with a vacuum pump. Voila! A long lasting, cheap, and cheap to operate, light bulb. This is why he received the credit for inventing the light bulb, as it was the first practical light bulb. This is why all the other patent suits against him on the invention failed. If you are interested, feel free to read the Josephson book which covers the patent suits. I don't think you can just dismiss them with Edison had the resources to defend his patents, nor can you dismiss them with the litigants being paupers. The litigants who didn't have money got money to pursue the patent cases from investors who knew that if they won the suit, they would get rich. Everyone was aware that an entire industry was up for grabs, and so they poured money into fighting Edison. These when on for many years. They had every opportunity to make their case(s). But Edison prevailed. As for the bandsaw, I said the invention of the circular saw revolutionized the lumber industry, and that invention was I think from the Amish. What Edison did was make things that were practical. BTW, Edison invented electronic vacuum tubes, but he failed to recognize what they would be good for. Would you say he invented the entire electronics industry up until 1960? I wouldn't. It was others who turned the vacuum tube into a practical and incredibly useful device. Edison invented the idea of a commercial invention lab, and produced so many practical inventions that revolutionized life that he is a contender for inventing the modern world. It's hard to understate his impact. Interestingly, the Wright Brothers inadvertently invented the modern directed research and development laboratory. I'm probably the only person who ascribes that to them, but before the Wrights, people just tried random things (including Edison). What the Wrights did was: 1. research everything known about the topic 2. identify each problem that needed solving 3. develop prototypes to test and solve each problem 4. put the solutions together to solve the whole problem and voila! it worked! and everybody else has followed that pattern since.
- surfpel 2y ago
  > 19th century US invented its technology. China simply copied it - which enables much faster growth until one runs out of things to copy. This is what I would rather focus on. If Edison can be credited with inventing as much as you say, I don’t see why you hold this belief regarding China. If you define “invention” as the core concept of a mechanism/process/etc, then Edison did not invent much at all, and perhaps China has a lot to prove. If you define “invention” to include all improvements to technologies which at their core already exist, then China is already the leading innovator globally. Yes, China has been playing catch up, but I hate narratives that would paint an entire nation of 1.4 billion people as some kind of mindless robot state. I’ve worked at two market leading, trend setting, American flagship tech companies which did competitive analyses on mass market Chinese tech products. Incidentally, they were at times when Chinese products were beginning to overtake the American ones. People were pretty shocked overall, and shortly after both of these experiences, on both occasions, the US imposed trade restrictions on the respective products. I remember a while ago, the thought that China was innovative would have been laughed at as it was a silly idea. They were just a factory, no more. Now, people get mad at you for stating the truth that China has evolved and is now out-innovating us. I think it’s fear based. The media paints a grim picture about what it’s like there, but breaking out of the western bubble has been enlightening and humbling. I now firmly believe that China will be the first to some kind of AGI, I think their EVs will dominate all global car markets, they’ll build embodied AI robots at scale first, their chips will eclipse Nvidia’s finest soon enough, their space program will be more advanced, etc Most importantly however, their green tech is outpacing us. The west really dropped the ball on what is the second greatest threat to long term survival of organized human life. For the sake of humanity, I hope they’re able to continue this advancement trend unimpeded, since they’re the only signatory of the Paris accords who are taking this seriously and not just meeting but exceeding targets. I hope they can equip the world with their inventions soon enough.
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    Let's take an example. One country invents a tractor, and makes improvements on it for 100 years. Then, another country that does agriculture by hoe and shovel, buys a modern tractor. Which one is going to experience faster year over year growth in the next year?
WalterBright 2y ago
> the trope that they can’t invent new ideas I didn't write anything like that. I wrote that you can grow faster by copying existing ideas that have been refined and put into practice than by reinventing them.

WalterBright 2y ago

You might want to read a biography of Edison, not just a summary on the web. The one by Josephson is good, and goes into considerable detail. Edison did not invent a glowing wire, nor did he invent electric arc lamps. However, both of those were useless as light bulbs. Existing lightbulbs at the time were low voltage, high current. The lightbulbs didn't last very long, and so were useless. They also consumed enormous amounts of power. Edison's innovation was to go with high voltage, low current. This cut the power consumption way down. The next problem he had was the filament burning up. This problem he managed to solve with a vacuum pump. Voila! A long lasting, cheap, and cheap to operate, light bulb. This is why he received the credit for inventing the light bulb, as it was the first practical light bulb. This is why all the other patent suits against him on the invention failed. If you are interested, feel free to read the Josephson book which covers the patent suits. I don't think you can just dismiss them with Edison had the resources to defend his patents, nor can you dismiss them with the litigants being paupers. The litigants who didn't have money got money to pursue the patent cases from investors who knew that if they won the suit, they would get rich. Everyone was aware that an entire industry was up for grabs, and so they poured money into fighting Edison. These when on for many years. They had every opportunity to make their case(s). But Edison prevailed. As for the bandsaw, I said the invention of the circular saw revolutionized the lumber industry, and that invention was I think from the Amish. What Edison did was make things that were practical. BTW, Edison invented electronic vacuum tubes, but he failed to recognize what they would be good for. Would you say he invented the entire electronics industry up until 1960? I wouldn't. It was others who turned the vacuum tube into a practical and incredibly useful device. Edison invented the idea of a commercial invention lab, and produced so many practical inventions that revolutionized life that he is a contender for inventing the modern world. It's hard to understate his impact. Interestingly, the Wright Brothers inadvertently invented the modern directed research and development laboratory. I'm probably the only person who ascribes that to them, but before the Wrights, people just tried random things (including Edison). What the Wrights did was: 1. research everything known about the topic 2. identify each problem that needed solving 3. develop prototypes to test and solve each problem 4. put the solutions together to solve the whole problem and voila! it worked! and everybody else has followed that pattern since.

surfpel 2y ago
> 19th century US invented its technology. China simply copied it - which enables much faster growth until one runs out of things to copy. This is what I would rather focus on. If Edison can be credited with inventing as much as you say, I don’t see why you hold this belief regarding China. If you define “invention” as the core concept of a mechanism/process/etc, then Edison did not invent much at all, and perhaps China has a lot to prove. If you define “invention” to include all improvements to technologies which at their core already exist, then China is already the leading innovator globally. Yes, China has been playing catch up, but I hate narratives that would paint an entire nation of 1.4 billion people as some kind of mindless robot state. I’ve worked at two market leading, trend setting, American flagship tech companies which did competitive analyses on mass market Chinese tech products. Incidentally, they were at times when Chinese products were beginning to overtake the American ones. People were pretty shocked overall, and shortly after both of these experiences, on both occasions, the US imposed trade restrictions on the respective products. I remember a while ago, the thought that China was innovative would have been laughed at as it was a silly idea. They were just a factory, no more. Now, people get mad at you for stating the truth that China has evolved and is now out-innovating us. I think it’s fear based. The media paints a grim picture about what it’s like there, but breaking out of the western bubble has been enlightening and humbling. I now firmly believe that China will be the first to some kind of AGI, I think their EVs will dominate all global car markets, they’ll build embodied AI robots at scale first, their chips will eclipse Nvidia’s finest soon enough, their space program will be more advanced, etc Most importantly however, their green tech is outpacing us. The west really dropped the ball on what is the second greatest threat to long term survival of organized human life. For the sake of humanity, I hope they’re able to continue this advancement trend unimpeded, since they’re the only signatory of the Paris accords who are taking this seriously and not just meeting but exceeding targets. I hope they can equip the world with their inventions soon enough.
- WalterBright 2y ago
  Let's take an example. One country invents a tractor, and makes improvements on it for 100 years. Then, another country that does agriculture by hoe and shovel, buys a modern tractor. Which one is going to experience faster year over year growth in the next year?

WalterBright 2y ago

> the trope that they can’t invent new ideas I didn't write anything like that. I wrote that you can grow faster by copying existing ideas that have been refined and put into practice than by reinventing them.