3 ms·

Aren't tons of Linux drivers for x86 laptops based entirely on reverse engineering? Maybe even most of them? I haven't used Linux seriously in almost two decade

Aren't tons of Linux drivers for x86 laptops based entirely on reverse engineering? Maybe even most of them? I haven't used Linux seriously in almost two decades, but that's my memory.

zeusk 2y ago
Most of the x86 platform (ACPI) is well defined and openly accessible (not free but open). There’s still some offenders (Surface, HP, Broadcom) that introduce quirks that break sleep and some HID accessories but most of it works out of the box. ARM has been the Wild West for a while but they’re going in the right direction with device trees et al. Apple however doesn’t have to care about the “wider” ecosystem since they left x86 for their own silicon and tighter integration from bottom up allows for some really nice end user experience. I still think it’s much better to use the VM infrastructure and just run Linux as a guest. Mac as a platform is very end user friendly as-is unlike Windows.
- pzmarzly 2y ago
  Device Trees are becoming an old thing now. With ARM SystemReady, most devices need to have UEFI, SMBIOS and ACPI. Only the SystemReady IR (IoT) variant is defined as using Device Trees. https://github.com/ArmDeveloperEcosystem/systemready-guides?tab=readme-ov-file#systemready-certified-devices-guide https://github.com/ArmDeveloperEcosystem/systemready-guides?...
  - zeusk 2y ago
    Microsoft is the only one pushing for ACPI on ARM, but as you said they have hefty weight in that area. I don't think it is right for the platform, but if it works who am I to say.
imiric 2y ago
I'm not sure if "tons" is accurate, but some of them are, yes. And most of them are not great IME. Not discrediting the talented programmers who work on them, it's just the nature of supporting hardware in the dark, without any support from the manufacturer. Though this was more common during the early days of Linux, and nowadays many manufacturers offer some kind of support.
bravetraveler 2y ago
We are well beyond the days of NDISWrapper, most of the kernel contributions come from hardware manufacturers or integrators
renewiltord 2y ago
OpenChrome far exceeded Unichrome Windows drivers in performance. But things have changed. Modern engineers prefer “official” software. I understand why. Systems are more complex now.
binkHN 2y ago
You've been out of the game for too long; almost every major hardware vendor has at least one or two people that are regularly submitting patches to the Linux kernel. My ThinkPad work computer running Linux is a major thing of joy; in many ways it performs more reliably on Linux than it does on Windows.
- kaba0 2y ago
  Even though, there are no lack of issues that are simply not cared about. E.g. thermal throttling for ThinkPads is a very annoying problem the best solution to is simply a python script that just periodically overwrites a memory location.
  - RVuRnvbM2e 2y ago
    It isn't nearly so dire. The modern solution for this is https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/upower/power-profiles-daemon https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/upower/power-profiles-daemon
    - tucnak 2y ago
      it's using dbus how modern can it be? :-)

Aren't tons of Linux drivers for x86 laptops based entirely on reverse engineering? Maybe even most of them? I haven't used Linux seriously in almost two decades, but that's my memory.

zeusk 2y ago

Most of the x86 platform (ACPI) is well defined and openly accessible (not free but open). There’s still some offenders (Surface, HP, Broadcom) that introduce quirks that break sleep and some HID accessories but most of it works out of the box. ARM has been the Wild West for a while but they’re going in the right direction with device trees et al. Apple however doesn’t have to care about the “wider” ecosystem since they left x86 for their own silicon and tighter integration from bottom up allows for some really nice end user experience. I still think it’s much better to use the VM infrastructure and just run Linux as a guest. Mac as a platform is very end user friendly as-is unlike Windows.

pzmarzly 2y ago
Device Trees are becoming an old thing now. With ARM SystemReady, most devices need to have UEFI, SMBIOS and ACPI. Only the SystemReady IR (IoT) variant is defined as using Device Trees. https://github.com/ArmDeveloperEcosystem/systemready-guides?tab=readme-ov-file#systemready-certified-devices-guide https://github.com/ArmDeveloperEcosystem/systemready-guides?...
- zeusk 2y ago
  Microsoft is the only one pushing for ACPI on ARM, but as you said they have hefty weight in that area. I don't think it is right for the platform, but if it works who am I to say.

imiric 2y ago

I'm not sure if "tons" is accurate, but some of them are, yes. And most of them are not great IME. Not discrediting the talented programmers who work on them, it's just the nature of supporting hardware in the dark, without any support from the manufacturer. Though this was more common during the early days of Linux, and nowadays many manufacturers offer some kind of support.

bravetraveler 2y ago

We are well beyond the days of NDISWrapper, most of the kernel contributions come from hardware manufacturers or integrators

renewiltord 2y ago

OpenChrome far exceeded Unichrome Windows drivers in performance. But things have changed. Modern engineers prefer “official” software. I understand why. Systems are more complex now.

binkHN 2y ago

You've been out of the game for too long; almost every major hardware vendor has at least one or two people that are regularly submitting patches to the Linux kernel. My ThinkPad work computer running Linux is a major thing of joy; in many ways it performs more reliably on Linux than it does on Windows.

kaba0 2y ago
Even though, there are no lack of issues that are simply not cared about. E.g. thermal throttling for ThinkPads is a very annoying problem the best solution to is simply a python script that just periodically overwrites a memory location.
- RVuRnvbM2e 2y ago
  It isn't nearly so dire. The modern solution for this is https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/upower/power-profiles-daemon https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/upower/power-profiles-daemon
  - tucnak 2y ago
    it's using dbus how modern can it be? :-)