4 ms·

Visiting East Asian countries and then returning to the US, I’m always struck by how behind and slow we are with large infrastructure projects.

kwere 2y ago
NINBYs at all levels love regulations
- Incipient 2y ago
  I don't think it's even NIMBY. It's just that doing big labour projects in us, EU, UK, etc is too expensive. Until we figure out how to develop our infrastructure without throwing manpower at it, we're going to get left behind. Our roads, rail, power, etc will all age and fail to keep up. We got to where we were because our great great grandparents all worked for significantly less, consumed significantly less. Our society shouldn't expect that of us, we need to have technology/IP that enables us to more with less people. One person controlling a bricklaying robot can get paid a respectable wage while keeping costs down.
  - throwaway2037 2y ago
    > doing big labour projects in us, EU, UK, etc is too expensive To be clear, the EU is huge -- 27 countries. In the east, there are plenty of poor and lower income people who are happy to move to other parts of EU for construction work. As for US and UK, I agree: There is no cheap labour. How do you explain why there is so much infra construction in Korea and Japan, but the prices are reasonable? They are both highly advanced nations.
    - FirmwareBurner 2y ago
      Japan and Korea don't have unions like in EU.
      - fakedang 2y ago
        Japan absolutely has unions which are extremely empowered.
    - klooney 2y ago
      Alon Levy over at Pedestrian Observations has a pretty well developed theory on this. The Anglosphere countries perform worse than Spain, Korea, etc., for a few reasons, some legal- the lawsuit bonanza up thread- and some more specific to the nontechnical bureaucracy in the high cost countries.
    - twelve40 2y ago
      > so much infra construction in Korea and Japan, but the prices are reasonable Just watched a Bloomberg short about SK where they complain that they are overworked, over-stressed, hypercompetitive, depressed as a people, giving up on starting families out of fear of financial insecurity. (also, seems top suicidal in SK) No idea if it's true, but that all might have something to do with keeping the wages down? https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2024-10-31/south-korea-s-radical-fix-to-asia-s-birth-rate-crisis-video https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2024-10-31/south-korea...
  - twelve40 2y ago
    > One person controlling a bricklaying robot can get paid a respectable wage while keeping costs down. what happens to all other persons? For example, there are 3.5 million truck drivers in US, whose only skill, with all due respect, is to sit behind the wheel all day long. Once we have robocars, they will all start to sing and dance and will get some time to discover their true calling?
refurb 2y ago
I was talking to an engineer who has a worked on a few majority buildings in NYC, SF. His take was it was mostly regulations slowing things down. Not that the regulations were overly onerous, but rather NIMBYs leverage the regulations to fight the projects every possible step of the way. Before even breaking ground, the environmental assessments would take years and close to $1M. Relatively straightforward assessments are contested by people who don't want it built, and current regulations force builders to come to yet another hearing, respond, then wait for a response, then another hearing for a decision. If they win, then the NIMBY files a lawsuit contesting the environmental hearing's decision. This is a reason why people selling fixer-uppers in SF charge way more if they have approved permits for it. The time and money spent can easily be >$100,000.

kwere 2y ago

NINBYs at all levels love regulations

Incipient 2y ago
I don't think it's even NIMBY. It's just that doing big labour projects in us, EU, UK, etc is too expensive. Until we figure out how to develop our infrastructure without throwing manpower at it, we're going to get left behind. Our roads, rail, power, etc will all age and fail to keep up. We got to where we were because our great great grandparents all worked for significantly less, consumed significantly less. Our society shouldn't expect that of us, we need to have technology/IP that enables us to more with less people. One person controlling a bricklaying robot can get paid a respectable wage while keeping costs down.
- throwaway2037 2y ago
  > doing big labour projects in us, EU, UK, etc is too expensive To be clear, the EU is huge -- 27 countries. In the east, there are plenty of poor and lower income people who are happy to move to other parts of EU for construction work. As for US and UK, I agree: There is no cheap labour. How do you explain why there is so much infra construction in Korea and Japan, but the prices are reasonable? They are both highly advanced nations.
  - FirmwareBurner 2y ago
    Japan and Korea don't have unions like in EU.
    - fakedang 2y ago
      Japan absolutely has unions which are extremely empowered.
  - klooney 2y ago
    Alon Levy over at Pedestrian Observations has a pretty well developed theory on this. The Anglosphere countries perform worse than Spain, Korea, etc., for a few reasons, some legal- the lawsuit bonanza up thread- and some more specific to the nontechnical bureaucracy in the high cost countries.
  - twelve40 2y ago
    > so much infra construction in Korea and Japan, but the prices are reasonable Just watched a Bloomberg short about SK where they complain that they are overworked, over-stressed, hypercompetitive, depressed as a people, giving up on starting families out of fear of financial insecurity. (also, seems top suicidal in SK) No idea if it's true, but that all might have something to do with keeping the wages down? https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2024-10-31/south-korea-s-radical-fix-to-asia-s-birth-rate-crisis-video https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2024-10-31/south-korea...
- twelve40 2y ago
  > One person controlling a bricklaying robot can get paid a respectable wage while keeping costs down. what happens to all other persons? For example, there are 3.5 million truck drivers in US, whose only skill, with all due respect, is to sit behind the wheel all day long. Once we have robocars, they will all start to sing and dance and will get some time to discover their true calling?

refurb 2y ago

I was talking to an engineer who has a worked on a few majority buildings in NYC, SF. His take was it was mostly regulations slowing things down. Not that the regulations were overly onerous, but rather NIMBYs leverage the regulations to fight the projects every possible step of the way. Before even breaking ground, the environmental assessments would take years and close to $1M. Relatively straightforward assessments are contested by people who don't want it built, and current regulations force builders to come to yet another hearing, respond, then wait for a response, then another hearing for a decision. If they win, then the NIMBY files a lawsuit contesting the environmental hearing's decision. This is a reason why people selling fixer-uppers in SF charge way more if they have approved permits for it. The time and money spent can easily be >$100,000.