5 ms·

min without a treadmill test

89 points by brandonb 2y ago

LandR 2y ago
The Garmin Vo2 max estimate is supposed to be pretty accurate too, but mines is wildly off. It also has race pace estimates for 5k, 10k, half mile etc and those are wildly off too. I think it bases these off Vo2 max, so its unsurprising. It thinks I can do a 42min 10k, that is just never happening.
- timanderson 2y ago
  Experience of those race predictions varies! Mine are over-optimistic but not by that much, a friend is the other way round and Garmin continued to predict a slower time even when he actually recorded races in faster times.
  - dpz 2y ago
    I think its more potential, my 5k/10k are quite accurate but my half and full are quite off - which makes sense as they're the distances I train for. It also doesn't take other factors into account like running on track vs road
    - rojeee 2y ago
      That makes sense. If you do longer runs (and long fast runs) then your half/marathon time will be more accurate. In general, the issue with using VO2max to priduct race performance is that it doesn't take into account account running economy which is a massive factor in determining performance for longer distances. Same with lactate threshold, which has a big impact on all distances. E.g. at what point do you go from a metabolic steady state to an unsustainable state. It's the most important factor in distance running in my opinion. The threshold can be at quite a slow pace even for someone with a high VO2max if they are not doing the right training. E.g. think of someone who is excellent at HIIT and has a VO2max of 60+ but can't run a fast 10km.
      - iamacyborg 2y ago
        Pretty sure garmin do take other factors into account for their race predictions as they’ll update when your lactate threshold does, even if your vo2max remains the same.
        rojeee 2y ago
        I think you are right regarding lactate threshold but im not sure how they factor in running economy as it's difficult to calculate. You need an accurate VO2 measurement. I guess they use HR as a proxy but in practise I find HR isn't such a good measure of metabolic output for various reasons; hills, unrelated stressors, heat, aerobic decoupling, etc.
        iamacyborg 2y ago
        No one except elite athletes are looking at running economy, there are far too many confounding variables.
        rojeee 2y ago
        Well.. a crude estimate of relative running economy is pace/heart rate and tracking it over time. Seeing the number go upwards means your economy is increasing and vice versa. A fair amount of people track this because it's a feature of pretty much every training/coaching app.
        iamacyborg 2y ago
        Crude to say the least!
- k1kingy 2y ago
  A lot of it probably comes down to the amount of data you feed its algorithm right. If you train a lot (70+ miles of running per week), log absolutely everything, and wear the watch 24/7 then it's going to give you far better estimates than someone who just puts the watch on to run twice a week.
- xxs 2y ago
  >(It thinks) I can do a 42min 10k Impressive, going over 14km/h (~4m/s) sustained is no joke. Many folks would just cramp out at that point. OTOH, Garmin's "body battery" seems quite accurate for my spouse
- vbarrielle 2y ago
  In my experience, the VO2Max estimator for Garmin tends to produce higher estimates when doing quite slow runs and gradually building up speed, whereas intervals sessions will lead to a lower estimate. From reading their white paper they fit a curve to the heart rate reserve vs pace relationship, but I think they account for heart rate lag using population averages, which means they'll often think (for me at least) that I need a very high heart rate for a slow pace after intervals which biases the estimate down. If one starts slow then builds up speed gradually, the aerobic system is more warmed up which leads to less elevated heart rate. Also, keeping the run short-ish will lead to higher estimates since heart rate drift seems not to be taken into account. All considered, the variance is quite high which in my experience does not make it that useful to track relative fitness changes.
timanderson 2y ago
I have an Apple Watch 7 and a Garmin Forerunner 265. The Garmin gives me a much higher VO2Max. I have no idea which is right but one factor seems to be the max heart rate, which the Garmin calculates but in Apple Watch seems to be fixed based on age unless you set it manually. Reluctant to set it manually as it will change over time and would neeed re-calculating so the Garmin approach seems better to me.
- Gualdrapo 2y ago
  > the max heart rate, which the Garmin calculates but in Apple Watch seems to be fixed based on age unless you set it manually. Is it like that for min heart rate? I have bradycardia, but lectures in my blood pressure monitor go from 44 to 41
  - esquivalience 2y ago
    Is it possible you mean 'readings' from the monitor rather than 'lectures'? If so that would be a very easy translation error to make. ('Readings' and 'lectures' can be synonyms, in the sense of someone knowledgable reading something out loud.) But it could just be me misunderstanding: sorry, if so.
  - dpz 2y ago
    I also have bradycardia, one of the goals for having a good garmin fitness age for me is maintaining sub 46bpm heart rate. So I think it takes it into account
  - pimlottc 2y ago
    “Lectures” in your blood pressure monitor?
    - TheCoreh 2y ago
      They probably meant readings, as the cognate for "lecture" in romance languages generally means both a lecture and a reading
- iamacyborg 2y ago
xattt 2y ago
One thing I can’t quite figure is if you are not doing a specific exercise to the T is whether your VO2 remains accurate. Example: I do interval running, which the Watch just records as a run. If I am not running for part of it (i.e. a 1-minute rest interval), is the Watch actually capturing the right info to calculate my VO2?
- Raed667 2y ago
  i would imagine it depends if you keep the watch recording or paused during the rest part
  - xattt 2y ago
    I’m using Intervals Pro, so it’s unlikely that it’s pausing it.
- inductive_magic 2y ago
  Wouldn't simply starting a HIIT-workout on the watch solve this?
  - matsemann 2y ago
    To me, interval running and HIIT is not the same. I mostly think of HIIT as something done in a gym with a kind of strength/cardio focus, not endurance? But also, even if my run or bike ride was a HIIT, I still would like my normal data / setup for that activity.
e40 2y ago
Isn’t the O2 sensor banned in the USA due to a patent dispute?
- fellerts 2y ago
  SpO2 (blood oxygen saturation) is disputed, yes. VO2Max is a completely different measurement.
cmgbhm 2y ago
The apple vo2 max calculator drives me crazy because I cycle. When I do long enough walks to trigger the calculation, it’s walking dogs with frequent stops. The FTP calculation is also annoying because it can’t differentiate types of rides.
iamacyborg 2y ago
Are Apple doing their own thing or are they just licensing Firstbeat’s tech? https://www.firstbeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/white_paper_vo2_estimation.pdf https://www.firstbeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/white_p...
- huhtenberg 2y ago
  That's a fair question. The repo for the Apple's paper doesn't say the tech is actually employed in their products. [1] https://github.com/apple/ml-heart-rate-models https://github.com/apple/ml-heart-rate-models
rojeee 2y ago
In my experience the only way to get an accurate VO2max is to do a lab test. I'm 40. My Garmin Fenix 8 suggests my VO2max is 69 at the moment but it's actually 64 as I recently did a lab test. Other things to consider: 1) VO2max changes day to day depending how recovered you are. 2) Environmental conditions will also change the value e.g. too hot/cold. 3) You need to be running on completely flat ground to get a decent result as although some of the estimation algorithms take elevation and surface into account, I'm sceptical as to their efficacy. Ultimately, VO2max, whilst a good health indicator, it's not the be all and end all for running performance. VO2max doesn't take into account lactate threshold and running economy. Two athletes can have the same VO2max but quite different race results for common distances. One might have a very large aerobic capacity but very poor running economy, so metabolically, they require more effort to run at the same pace as someone with a lower VO2max. Also, as you get aerobically fitter, for running long distances, it has been observed that VO2max falls. Need to dig out the reference for this. Like anything, there's lots of nuance. Some people mentioned race time predictions from VO2max. If you are into running you are better off using recent interval performances to predict race times and measure your fitness. You can use the hyperbolic critical speed model (Similar to FTP). It's only accurate for durations from a minute or so to 20 minutes. Other models can be used to fill in the gaps. This paper explains it [1] I'm a big advocate of not getting too caught up in physiology when it comes to running. What really matters is "how fast can you run for race distances" and you can improve that by doing more running at or near race speed. E.g. for 5k, do intervals at 105% 5k race pace and longer runs at 95% 5k race pace. This is the essence of Renato Canova's percentage based training [2] which has been very effective for Kenyan Elite's and also myself! I'm currently building out a training platform which uses the omni domain speed model (see below) as the basis for prescribing training paces and workouts. I'm currently using the system for myself to great effect. Managed to get my 5km race time from around 20 minutes to 15 minutes in under 2 years (and im 40). [1] "Development and field validation of an omni- domain power-duration model, Michael J. Puchowicz, Jonathan Baker & David C. Clarke" [2] https://runningwritings.com/2023/06/canova-marathon-book.html https://runningwritings.com/2023/06/canova-marathon-book.htm...
- mrfox321 2y ago
  20 to 15 is insane. Are these low 15s or high 15s? Regardless, that's fantastic progress. Do you respond better to intervals or longer aerobic efforts? I ask because Ive always wondered if training should be specialized for fast/slow twitch runners. Specifically, do you focus on strengths or weaknesses. Let me follow you on Strava :p
082349872349872 2y ago
at what point does Apple start offering a Biometric Identity system?
kashunstva 2y ago
Although I have enough cardiopulmonary reserve to have completed the Triple Bypass in Colorado, the Apple Watch regularly registers me in a near-cardiac-transplant range of impairment; so I’ve come to mistrust its estimates. It also correlates poorly with a laboratory VO2 max ergometric test in my case.
ulfw 2y ago
Mine has been telling me I got very low VO2Max of 26 every day, for years. No matter if I work out or do nothing or go on a 5 mile walk or whatever. Let's just say I take Apple Watch is the gimmick it is. Nice for notifications and setting the timer for cooking though
- inductive_magic 2y ago
  Care to elaborate why you think this reading is so wrong? Vo2max has a significant genetic component, and it doesn't improve unless you actually push your anaerobic threshold, i.e. interval training and long distance running. It doesn't improve by "going on a 5 mile walk or whatever".
- agos 2y ago
  do you have reason to believe it should be higher?
- einburger 2y ago
  Mine underestimates my VO2 max to be around 40 which is much lower than what I calculated myself. Turns out the Apple Watch thinks my resting heart rate is much lower than it actually is, explaining the difference.
macrolime 2y ago
The VO2Max seems wildly inaccurate. It never activates when I exercise, but sometimes activates when I'm sleeping.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
bovermyer 2y ago
I've been using VO2Max to get a rough idea of my cardio health. I'm not an athlete or a runner. I'm 42, and it's sitting at about 31 right now, which Apple tells me is Low. So, I guess I just use it as a motivator for going on walks or perhaps starting to jog again.
- CobaltFire 2y ago
  I’m at (exactly) the same point as you: 42 and 31 (though via Garmin not Apple). I know my cause and am fixing it though. As recently as 2020 I had a VO2Max of 48, and had lots of issues that resulted in me dropping my fitness regime. I’ve also had some health challenges that impact it that I’m hoping I can recover from soon.

89 points by brandonb 2y ago

The Garmin Vo2 max estimate is supposed to be pretty accurate too, but mines is wildly off. It also has race pace estimates for 5k, 10k, half mile etc and those are wildly off too. I think it bases these off Vo2 max, so its unsurprising. It thinks I can do a 42min 10k, that is just never happening.

timanderson 2y ago
Experience of those race predictions varies! Mine are over-optimistic but not by that much, a friend is the other way round and Garmin continued to predict a slower time even when he actually recorded races in faster times.
- dpz 2y ago
  I think its more potential, my 5k/10k are quite accurate but my half and full are quite off - which makes sense as they're the distances I train for. It also doesn't take other factors into account like running on track vs road
  - rojeee 2y ago
    That makes sense. If you do longer runs (and long fast runs) then your half/marathon time will be more accurate. In general, the issue with using VO2max to priduct race performance is that it doesn't take into account account running economy which is a massive factor in determining performance for longer distances. Same with lactate threshold, which has a big impact on all distances. E.g. at what point do you go from a metabolic steady state to an unsustainable state. It's the most important factor in distance running in my opinion. The threshold can be at quite a slow pace even for someone with a high VO2max if they are not doing the right training. E.g. think of someone who is excellent at HIIT and has a VO2max of 60+ but can't run a fast 10km.
    - iamacyborg 2y ago
      Pretty sure garmin do take other factors into account for their race predictions as they’ll update when your lactate threshold does, even if your vo2max remains the same.
      - rojeee 2y ago
        I think you are right regarding lactate threshold but im not sure how they factor in running economy as it's difficult to calculate. You need an accurate VO2 measurement. I guess they use HR as a proxy but in practise I find HR isn't such a good measure of metabolic output for various reasons; hills, unrelated stressors, heat, aerobic decoupling, etc.
        iamacyborg 2y ago
        No one except elite athletes are looking at running economy, there are far too many confounding variables.
        rojeee 2y ago
        Well.. a crude estimate of relative running economy is pace/heart rate and tracking it over time. Seeing the number go upwards means your economy is increasing and vice versa. A fair amount of people track this because it's a feature of pretty much every training/coaching app.
        iamacyborg 2y ago
        Crude to say the least!
k1kingy 2y ago
A lot of it probably comes down to the amount of data you feed its algorithm right. If you train a lot (70+ miles of running per week), log absolutely everything, and wear the watch 24/7 then it's going to give you far better estimates than someone who just puts the watch on to run twice a week.
xxs 2y ago
>(It thinks) I can do a 42min 10k Impressive, going over 14km/h (~4m/s) sustained is no joke. Many folks would just cramp out at that point. OTOH, Garmin's "body battery" seems quite accurate for my spouse
vbarrielle 2y ago
In my experience, the VO2Max estimator for Garmin tends to produce higher estimates when doing quite slow runs and gradually building up speed, whereas intervals sessions will lead to a lower estimate. From reading their white paper they fit a curve to the heart rate reserve vs pace relationship, but I think they account for heart rate lag using population averages, which means they'll often think (for me at least) that I need a very high heart rate for a slow pace after intervals which biases the estimate down. If one starts slow then builds up speed gradually, the aerobic system is more warmed up which leads to less elevated heart rate. Also, keeping the run short-ish will lead to higher estimates since heart rate drift seems not to be taken into account. All considered, the variance is quite high which in my experience does not make it that useful to track relative fitness changes.

timanderson 2y ago

I have an Apple Watch 7 and a Garmin Forerunner 265. The Garmin gives me a much higher VO2Max. I have no idea which is right but one factor seems to be the max heart rate, which the Garmin calculates but in Apple Watch seems to be fixed based on age unless you set it manually. Reluctant to set it manually as it will change over time and would neeed re-calculating so the Garmin approach seems better to me.

Gualdrapo 2y ago
> the max heart rate, which the Garmin calculates but in Apple Watch seems to be fixed based on age unless you set it manually. Is it like that for min heart rate? I have bradycardia, but lectures in my blood pressure monitor go from 44 to 41
- esquivalience 2y ago
  Is it possible you mean 'readings' from the monitor rather than 'lectures'? If so that would be a very easy translation error to make. ('Readings' and 'lectures' can be synonyms, in the sense of someone knowledgable reading something out loud.) But it could just be me misunderstanding: sorry, if so.
- dpz 2y ago
  I also have bradycardia, one of the goals for having a good garmin fitness age for me is maintaining sub 46bpm heart rate. So I think it takes it into account
- pimlottc 2y ago
  “Lectures” in your blood pressure monitor?
  - TheCoreh 2y ago
    They probably meant readings, as the cognate for "lecture" in romance languages generally means both a lecture and a reading
iamacyborg 2y ago

xattt 2y ago

One thing I can’t quite figure is if you are not doing a specific exercise to the T is whether your VO2 remains accurate. Example: I do interval running, which the Watch just records as a run. If I am not running for part of it (i.e. a 1-minute rest interval), is the Watch actually capturing the right info to calculate my VO2?

Raed667 2y ago
i would imagine it depends if you keep the watch recording or paused during the rest part
- xattt 2y ago
  I’m using Intervals Pro, so it’s unlikely that it’s pausing it.
inductive_magic 2y ago
Wouldn't simply starting a HIIT-workout on the watch solve this?
- matsemann 2y ago
  To me, interval running and HIIT is not the same. I mostly think of HIIT as something done in a gym with a kind of strength/cardio focus, not endurance? But also, even if my run or bike ride was a HIIT, I still would like my normal data / setup for that activity.

e40 2y ago

Isn’t the O2 sensor banned in the USA due to a patent dispute?

fellerts 2y ago
SpO2 (blood oxygen saturation) is disputed, yes. VO2Max is a completely different measurement.

cmgbhm 2y ago

The apple vo2 max calculator drives me crazy because I cycle. When I do long enough walks to trigger the calculation, it’s walking dogs with frequent stops. The FTP calculation is also annoying because it can’t differentiate types of rides.

iamacyborg 2y ago

Are Apple doing their own thing or are they just licensing Firstbeat’s tech? https://www.firstbeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/white_paper_vo2_estimation.pdf https://www.firstbeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/white_p...

huhtenberg 2y ago
That's a fair question. The repo for the Apple's paper doesn't say the tech is actually employed in their products. [1] https://github.com/apple/ml-heart-rate-models https://github.com/apple/ml-heart-rate-models

rojeee 2y ago

In my experience the only way to get an accurate VO2max is to do a lab test. I'm 40. My Garmin Fenix 8 suggests my VO2max is 69 at the moment but it's actually 64 as I recently did a lab test. Other things to consider: 1) VO2max changes day to day depending how recovered you are. 2) Environmental conditions will also change the value e.g. too hot/cold. 3) You need to be running on completely flat ground to get a decent result as although some of the estimation algorithms take elevation and surface into account, I'm sceptical as to their efficacy. Ultimately, VO2max, whilst a good health indicator, it's not the be all and end all for running performance. VO2max doesn't take into account lactate threshold and running economy. Two athletes can have the same VO2max but quite different race results for common distances. One might have a very large aerobic capacity but very poor running economy, so metabolically, they require more effort to run at the same pace as someone with a lower VO2max. Also, as you get aerobically fitter, for running long distances, it has been observed that VO2max falls. Need to dig out the reference for this. Like anything, there's lots of nuance. Some people mentioned race time predictions from VO2max. If you are into running you are better off using recent interval performances to predict race times and measure your fitness. You can use the hyperbolic critical speed model (Similar to FTP). It's only accurate for durations from a minute or so to 20 minutes. Other models can be used to fill in the gaps. This paper explains it [1] I'm a big advocate of not getting too caught up in physiology when it comes to running. What really matters is "how fast can you run for race distances" and you can improve that by doing more running at or near race speed. E.g. for 5k, do intervals at 105% 5k race pace and longer runs at 95% 5k race pace. This is the essence of Renato Canova's percentage based training [2] which has been very effective for Kenyan Elite's and also myself! I'm currently building out a training platform which uses the omni domain speed model (see below) as the basis for prescribing training paces and workouts. I'm currently using the system for myself to great effect. Managed to get my 5km race time from around 20 minutes to 15 minutes in under 2 years (and im 40). [1] "Development and field validation of an omni- domain power-duration model, Michael J. Puchowicz, Jonathan Baker & David C. Clarke" [2] https://runningwritings.com/2023/06/canova-marathon-book.html https://runningwritings.com/2023/06/canova-marathon-book.htm...

mrfox321 2y ago
20 to 15 is insane. Are these low 15s or high 15s? Regardless, that's fantastic progress. Do you respond better to intervals or longer aerobic efforts? I ask because Ive always wondered if training should be specialized for fast/slow twitch runners. Specifically, do you focus on strengths or weaknesses. Let me follow you on Strava :p

082349872349872 2y ago

at what point does Apple start offering a Biometric Identity system?

kashunstva 2y ago

Although I have enough cardiopulmonary reserve to have completed the Triple Bypass in Colorado, the Apple Watch regularly registers me in a near-cardiac-transplant range of impairment; so I’ve come to mistrust its estimates. It also correlates poorly with a laboratory VO2 max ergometric test in my case.

ulfw 2y ago

Mine has been telling me I got very low VO2Max of 26 every day, for years. No matter if I work out or do nothing or go on a 5 mile walk or whatever. Let's just say I take Apple Watch is the gimmick it is. Nice for notifications and setting the timer for cooking though

inductive_magic 2y ago
Care to elaborate why you think this reading is so wrong? Vo2max has a significant genetic component, and it doesn't improve unless you actually push your anaerobic threshold, i.e. interval training and long distance running. It doesn't improve by "going on a 5 mile walk or whatever".
agos 2y ago
do you have reason to believe it should be higher?
einburger 2y ago
Mine underestimates my VO2 max to be around 40 which is much lower than what I calculated myself. Turns out the Apple Watch thinks my resting heart rate is much lower than it actually is, explaining the difference.

macrolime 2y ago

The VO2Max seems wildly inaccurate. It never activates when I exercise, but sometimes activates when I'm sleeping.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

bovermyer 2y ago

I've been using VO2Max to get a rough idea of my cardio health. I'm not an athlete or a runner. I'm 42, and it's sitting at about 31 right now, which Apple tells me is Low. So, I guess I just use it as a motivator for going on walks or perhaps starting to jog again.

CobaltFire 2y ago
I’m at (exactly) the same point as you: 42 and 31 (though via Garmin not Apple). I know my cause and am fixing it though. As recently as 2020 I had a VO2Max of 48, and had lots of issues that resulted in me dropping my fitness regime. I’ve also had some health challenges that impact it that I’m hoping I can recover from soon.