7 ms·

Underrated point, maybe it's aluminum unibody or more stable OS, but in my experience average MBP lifetime is meaningfully higher compared to a windows machine.

Underrated point, maybe it's aluminum unibody or more stable OS, but in my experience average MBP lifetime is meaningfully higher compared to a windows machine. My longest lasting windows machine was T400 Thinkpad which lasted 5 years before Core 2 Duo architecture stopped being able to keep up. It got replaced with HP Envy with great specs but made out of plastic which barely lasted 1.5 years before screen fell off (literally). Replaced with 17" 2014 MBP which is still alive after SSD replacement.

throw88888 2y ago
If you replaced the T400 because it felt slow, maybe it’s just a software/OS issue. The hardware on Thinkpad T-models should last longer than just 5 years in general. My daily-driver laptop at home is a T420 from 2011 with a Core 2 Duo, SSD and 8GB RAM. Works fine still. I run Linux + OpenBox, so it is a somewhat lightweight setup to be fair.
- dm319 2y ago
  My daughter just asked me for the 'tiny' laptop. She has taken my Thinkpad X60 which runs linux mint. It's getting on for 20 years old soon!
- bhouston 2y ago
  > My daily-driver laptop at home is a T420 from 2011 with a Core 2 Duo, SSD and 8GB RAM. Works fine still. I am not sure I would be productive with that. Any Core 2 Duo is 10x slower single core and 20x slower multi-core than a current generation laptop CPU at this point. Eg: https://browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/compare/8588187?baseline=8387890 https://browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/compare/8588187?baselin... I think it would mostly be good as an SSH terminal, but doing any real work locally on it seems frankly unfeasible.
  - pixelfarmer 2y ago
    The problem is software, though. I have a X200s with 4 GiB RAM from 2009. It was interesting to see how Firefox got slower and slower over the years. Granted, it not only is Firefox but also retard websites which use loads and loads of JS to display static content in the end. In return, it is not like JS didn't exist back then: The XhtmlRequest thingy for dynamic website updates or whatever the name for that was has been added years prior to that. So, yes, a lot of this comes down to software and a massive waste of cycles. I remember one bug in Electron/Atom where a blinking cursor caused like 10% CPU load or something along that line. They fixed it, but it tells you way more about how broken the entire software stack was at that time and it didn't get better since then. I mean, think about this: I used 1280x1024 on a 20" screen back in the mid 90ies on (Unix!) machines that are insanely less powerful than even this X200s. The biggest difference: Now you can move windows around visually, back then you moved the outer frame of it to the new place and then it got redrawn. And the formatting options in browsers are better, i.e. it is easier to design the layout you want. Plus there is no need for palette changes when switching windows anymore ("true color"). The overall productivity hasn't kept up with the increase in computing power, though. Do you think a machine 100x the performance will give you 100x the productivity? With some exceptions, the weak link in the chain were, are, and will always be humans, and if there are delays, we are talking almost always about badly "optimized" software (aka bloat). That was an issue back then already and, unfortunately, it didn't get better.
    - TrainedMonkey 2y ago
      This depends on the workflow heavily. For working with text, listening to music, or even doing some light paint work my museum 75mhz K5 running windows 2000 is enough. For building a multi-platform python package embedding a compiler you really want lots of cores. At this point we are talking about 20x+ difference between Core 2 Duo and a modern part. For modern day web experience you want something in between.
  - throw88888 2y ago
    Horses for courses ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I do development and DevOps on it. Sure there are some intense workloads that I probably couldn’t run, but it works just fine as my daily driver. I also have a corporate/work laptop from Dell with 32GB RAM, 16 cores @ 4.x GHz etc. - a beast - but it runs Windows (+ antivirus, group policy crap etc.) and is slower in many aspects. Sure I can compile a single file faster and spin up more pods/containers etc. on the Dell laptop, but I am usually not constrained on my T420. I generally don’t spend much time waiting for my machine to finish things, compared to the time I spend e.g. writing text/code/whatever.
vladvasiliu 2y ago
There's also the fact that the quality is all-round higher, making them more enjoyable to use. The current HP Elitebooks have much crappier screens than my 2013 MBP. Touchpads have improved, but they're still leagues behind that 11-year-old machine. I'm usually fairly careful with my things, so my gen8 hp elitebook still has all its bits together, but I've never really enjoyed using it. The screen, in particular, has ridiculous viewing angles, to the point it's impossible to not have any color cast on some region.
ho_schi 2y ago
ThinkPad X220 here. From late 2012 until late 2023 in service with Linux. It is still usable but finally replaced it by an X13 Gen3 AMD with Linux. The magnesium body is a bless and feels a lot better to the skin than aluminium. The HiDPI display is the biggest upgrade. The six row keyboard is sturdy but a downgrade from the seven row keyboard. I miss the notch to open the lid. It got worse with Gen4/5 which now have an awful hump (reverse notch) like a smartphone. The long usage of the X220 depends on the built quality but also on the five year replacement part support. New batteries and a new palm rest (cracked during a journey). It not just quality you pay for, it is this support level. And of course more memory. Apple still fails in this regard and barely does something when forced by the European Union. Anyway - Apple doesn’t officially support Linux therefore I cannot buy them for work. This is the part wich saddens me, they do good work and the next MacBook will also not run fully with Linux. This kind of catchup things by hackers cannot be won - until the vendor decides you’re a valuable customer. Therefore, don’t buy them that you can run Linux. You maybe can. But these devices are made for macOS only. But if you want to run Linux on a MacBook? Talk your politicians! And send „messages“ with your money to Apple. Like buying ThinkPads, Dells Developer Edition, Purism, System 76 and so on :)
- user_7832 2y ago
  > The magnesium body is a bless and feels a lot better to the skin than aluminium. Just curious, how does it feel better? My framework apparently has an aluminium lid and a magnesium base, and the mg feels “smoother” than the slightly more textured al… however my iPad is apparently aluminium too and is smooth to the touch.
  - ho_schi 2y ago
    It is not about smoothness. Actually the magnesium bottom feels like some high quality polymer/plastic. And it is leightweight. Therefore it doesn’t feel like metal and doesn’t transport heat/cold. Aluminum is a nice material for planes, cars or bikes but I avoid skin contact because it is uncomfortable. I guess like often it depends on how the magnesium made. Lenovo also uses for other parts high quality plastics (keyboard of course and probably the palm rest).
Sakos 2y ago
I have a T420 with a Core i5 2500 in great condition which still runs great on Windows 11. Core 2 Duo just didn't have the performance to have longevity. Sandy Bridge and later really do. Windows devices last for ages and it's really weird pretending this is an Apple only thing.
goosedragons 2y ago
Wouldn't an equivalent Core 2 Duo Mac be just as bad if not worse in the same time frame due to Apple's constant OS updates? I have quad core W520 from 2011, it's still VERY serviceable for modern usage. Not the fastest, but it even has USB 3 and a 1080p screen which an equivalentish MBP from the time would have not.

throw88888 2y ago

If you replaced the T400 because it felt slow, maybe it’s just a software/OS issue. The hardware on Thinkpad T-models should last longer than just 5 years in general. My daily-driver laptop at home is a T420 from 2011 with a Core 2 Duo, SSD and 8GB RAM. Works fine still. I run Linux + OpenBox, so it is a somewhat lightweight setup to be fair.

dm319 2y ago
My daughter just asked me for the 'tiny' laptop. She has taken my Thinkpad X60 which runs linux mint. It's getting on for 20 years old soon!
bhouston 2y ago
> My daily-driver laptop at home is a T420 from 2011 with a Core 2 Duo, SSD and 8GB RAM. Works fine still. I am not sure I would be productive with that. Any Core 2 Duo is 10x slower single core and 20x slower multi-core than a current generation laptop CPU at this point. Eg: https://browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/compare/8588187?baseline=8387890 https://browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/compare/8588187?baselin... I think it would mostly be good as an SSH terminal, but doing any real work locally on it seems frankly unfeasible.
- pixelfarmer 2y ago
  The problem is software, though. I have a X200s with 4 GiB RAM from 2009. It was interesting to see how Firefox got slower and slower over the years. Granted, it not only is Firefox but also retard websites which use loads and loads of JS to display static content in the end. In return, it is not like JS didn't exist back then: The XhtmlRequest thingy for dynamic website updates or whatever the name for that was has been added years prior to that. So, yes, a lot of this comes down to software and a massive waste of cycles. I remember one bug in Electron/Atom where a blinking cursor caused like 10% CPU load or something along that line. They fixed it, but it tells you way more about how broken the entire software stack was at that time and it didn't get better since then. I mean, think about this: I used 1280x1024 on a 20" screen back in the mid 90ies on (Unix!) machines that are insanely less powerful than even this X200s. The biggest difference: Now you can move windows around visually, back then you moved the outer frame of it to the new place and then it got redrawn. And the formatting options in browsers are better, i.e. it is easier to design the layout you want. Plus there is no need for palette changes when switching windows anymore ("true color"). The overall productivity hasn't kept up with the increase in computing power, though. Do you think a machine 100x the performance will give you 100x the productivity? With some exceptions, the weak link in the chain were, are, and will always be humans, and if there are delays, we are talking almost always about badly "optimized" software (aka bloat). That was an issue back then already and, unfortunately, it didn't get better.
  - TrainedMonkey 2y ago
    This depends on the workflow heavily. For working with text, listening to music, or even doing some light paint work my museum 75mhz K5 running windows 2000 is enough. For building a multi-platform python package embedding a compiler you really want lots of cores. At this point we are talking about 20x+ difference between Core 2 Duo and a modern part. For modern day web experience you want something in between.
- throw88888 2y ago
  Horses for courses ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I do development and DevOps on it. Sure there are some intense workloads that I probably couldn’t run, but it works just fine as my daily driver. I also have a corporate/work laptop from Dell with 32GB RAM, 16 cores @ 4.x GHz etc. - a beast - but it runs Windows (+ antivirus, group policy crap etc.) and is slower in many aspects. Sure I can compile a single file faster and spin up more pods/containers etc. on the Dell laptop, but I am usually not constrained on my T420. I generally don’t spend much time waiting for my machine to finish things, compared to the time I spend e.g. writing text/code/whatever.

vladvasiliu 2y ago

There's also the fact that the quality is all-round higher, making them more enjoyable to use. The current HP Elitebooks have much crappier screens than my 2013 MBP. Touchpads have improved, but they're still leagues behind that 11-year-old machine. I'm usually fairly careful with my things, so my gen8 hp elitebook still has all its bits together, but I've never really enjoyed using it. The screen, in particular, has ridiculous viewing angles, to the point it's impossible to not have any color cast on some region.

ho_schi 2y ago

ThinkPad X220 here. From late 2012 until late 2023 in service with Linux. It is still usable but finally replaced it by an X13 Gen3 AMD with Linux. The magnesium body is a bless and feels a lot better to the skin than aluminium. The HiDPI display is the biggest upgrade. The six row keyboard is sturdy but a downgrade from the seven row keyboard. I miss the notch to open the lid. It got worse with Gen4/5 which now have an awful hump (reverse notch) like a smartphone. The long usage of the X220 depends on the built quality but also on the five year replacement part support. New batteries and a new palm rest (cracked during a journey). It not just quality you pay for, it is this support level. And of course more memory. Apple still fails in this regard and barely does something when forced by the European Union. Anyway - Apple doesn’t officially support Linux therefore I cannot buy them for work. This is the part wich saddens me, they do good work and the next MacBook will also not run fully with Linux. This kind of catchup things by hackers cannot be won - until the vendor decides you’re a valuable customer. Therefore, don’t buy them that you can run Linux. You maybe can. But these devices are made for macOS only. But if you want to run Linux on a MacBook? Talk your politicians! And send „messages“ with your money to Apple. Like buying ThinkPads, Dells Developer Edition, Purism, System 76 and so on :)

user_7832 2y ago
> The magnesium body is a bless and feels a lot better to the skin than aluminium. Just curious, how does it feel better? My framework apparently has an aluminium lid and a magnesium base, and the mg feels “smoother” than the slightly more textured al… however my iPad is apparently aluminium too and is smooth to the touch.
- ho_schi 2y ago
  It is not about smoothness. Actually the magnesium bottom feels like some high quality polymer/plastic. And it is leightweight. Therefore it doesn’t feel like metal and doesn’t transport heat/cold. Aluminum is a nice material for planes, cars or bikes but I avoid skin contact because it is uncomfortable. I guess like often it depends on how the magnesium made. Lenovo also uses for other parts high quality plastics (keyboard of course and probably the palm rest).

Sakos 2y ago

I have a T420 with a Core i5 2500 in great condition which still runs great on Windows 11. Core 2 Duo just didn't have the performance to have longevity. Sandy Bridge and later really do. Windows devices last for ages and it's really weird pretending this is an Apple only thing.

goosedragons 2y ago

Wouldn't an equivalent Core 2 Duo Mac be just as bad if not worse in the same time frame due to Apple's constant OS updates? I have quad core W520 from 2011, it's still VERY serviceable for modern usage. Not the fastest, but it even has USB 3 and a 1080p screen which an equivalentish MBP from the time would have not.