5 ms·

Are you sure Apple can’t read them too?

Veen 2y ago
They say they can’t, but it’s impossible to be certain. Although, if you distrust Apple enough to think they might lie about it, you probably wouldn’t want to use any Apple device or services. They already have privileged access to the software and hardware.
- create-username 2y ago
  Yes. SIP means Apple is the real sudo now. You can’t disable their special relationship on their computers
  - JimDabell 2y ago
    Yes you can. Here are the instructions to disable it: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/security/disabling-and-enabling-system-integrity-protection https://developer.apple.com/documentation/security/disabling...
    - hu3 2y ago
      Doesn't disabling SIP weaken the security?
- realusername 2y ago
  > They already have privileged access to the software and hardware. The fact that the phone manufacturer has a more privileged access than the owner of the phone is absolute insanity.
  - robertlagrant 2y ago
    That's pretty normal, isn't it? Do you have more privileged access to your phone than its kernel does?
    - realusername 2y ago
      I'd prefer it to work like a normal computer where there's a separation of the OS and the hardware. But sure, other phones aren't better.
      - robertlagrant 2y ago
        I'm not sure I've used any operating system where I have more privilege than the kernel does.
        cassianoleal 2y ago
        You can escalate your privilege if you can freely choose which kernel to run. Maybe you won’t have _more_ privilege than the kernel but you would certainly have as much.
        robertlagrant 2y ago
        I can escalate my privilege to be higher than the kernel's?
- lapcat 2y ago
  > Although, if you distrust Apple enough to think they might lie about it, you probably wouldn’t want to use any Apple device or services. It's not even about lies. It's about bugs and vulnerabilities, which every vendor has.
  - privacyking 2y ago
    I'm considered switching to Mac from linux and I came across your blog which has been very informative. What made you chose mac over linux?
    - lapcat 2y ago
      I didn't choose Mac over Linux. I chose Mac over Windows in the year 2002, and I became a Mac developer in 2006. Things were a lot different back then. Now it's too late for me, because my entire livelihood depends on Mac.
      - privacyking 2y ago
        Fair enough, I guess you are overall happy with the OS though
      - mcsniff 2y ago
        Not throwing shade here on your decision, but that's still choosing Mac over Linux and every day you continue to make that choice. It's a perfectly fine decision, but Linux was, and still is, an option for plenty of people who develop for Apple hardware/software without daily driving it, myself included.
        lapcat 2y ago
        > Linux was, and still is, an option for plenty of people who develop for Apple hardware/software without daily driving it, myself included. Well, I believe in dogfooding. I don't think it would be good for my software or my customers if I didn't use the same operating system as them. Besides, work-related activities are mostly what I use a computer for, so I'm not sure what I would even do with Linux.
blitzar 2y ago
Are you sure AES 256-bit hasn't been broken?
- hello0904 2y ago
  Best practices for password storage use one-way hash functions (like bcrypt, Argon2, or PBKDF2) rather than encryption algorithms like AES. AES is not one way and in theory you can generate 2nd, 3rd, etc. master keys to decrypt. :)
  - ethangk 2y ago
    That’s relevant when storing a users password to verify that they’ve entered the correct data, but password managers (which Keychain effectively is, I believe) need to be able to retrieve the original password
    - hello0904 2y ago
      Frankly, you're confusing hashing algorithms, encryption and "IDs". Authentication: "Prove you are you" (hash functions) Secure Storage: "Keep this secret but let me get it back later" (encryption) Identification: "Track who/what this is" (UUIDs/tokens)
      - stouset 2y ago
        You are deeply confused as to how password managers work. Password managers—all password managers—require stored passwords to be encrypted such that they can be decrypted. Otherwise they would have no possibly way to retrieve the stored secret for the sake of submitting it to the verifying party. Best practice for verifiers is to use a one-way memory-hard password hash. Keychain is a password manager.
      - ziddoap 2y ago
        >Secure Storage: "Keep this secret but let me get it back later" (encryption) This is what keychain does. You retrieve the passwords later. So, no. It is not a one-way hash function as you stated.

Veen 2y ago

They say they can’t, but it’s impossible to be certain. Although, if you distrust Apple enough to think they might lie about it, you probably wouldn’t want to use any Apple device or services. They already have privileged access to the software and hardware.

create-username 2y ago
Yes. SIP means Apple is the real sudo now. You can’t disable their special relationship on their computers
- JimDabell 2y ago
  Yes you can. Here are the instructions to disable it: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/security/disabling-and-enabling-system-integrity-protection https://developer.apple.com/documentation/security/disabling...
  - hu3 2y ago
    Doesn't disabling SIP weaken the security?
realusername 2y ago
> They already have privileged access to the software and hardware. The fact that the phone manufacturer has a more privileged access than the owner of the phone is absolute insanity.
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  That's pretty normal, isn't it? Do you have more privileged access to your phone than its kernel does?
  - realusername 2y ago
    I'd prefer it to work like a normal computer where there's a separation of the OS and the hardware. But sure, other phones aren't better.
    - robertlagrant 2y ago
      I'm not sure I've used any operating system where I have more privilege than the kernel does.
      - cassianoleal 2y ago
        You can escalate your privilege if you can freely choose which kernel to run. Maybe you won’t have _more_ privilege than the kernel but you would certainly have as much.
        robertlagrant 2y ago
        I can escalate my privilege to be higher than the kernel's?
lapcat 2y ago
> Although, if you distrust Apple enough to think they might lie about it, you probably wouldn’t want to use any Apple device or services. It's not even about lies. It's about bugs and vulnerabilities, which every vendor has.
- privacyking 2y ago
  I'm considered switching to Mac from linux and I came across your blog which has been very informative. What made you chose mac over linux?
  - lapcat 2y ago
    I didn't choose Mac over Linux. I chose Mac over Windows in the year 2002, and I became a Mac developer in 2006. Things were a lot different back then. Now it's too late for me, because my entire livelihood depends on Mac.
    - privacyking 2y ago
      Fair enough, I guess you are overall happy with the OS though
    - mcsniff 2y ago
      Not throwing shade here on your decision, but that's still choosing Mac over Linux and every day you continue to make that choice. It's a perfectly fine decision, but Linux was, and still is, an option for plenty of people who develop for Apple hardware/software without daily driving it, myself included.
      - lapcat 2y ago
        > Linux was, and still is, an option for plenty of people who develop for Apple hardware/software without daily driving it, myself included. Well, I believe in dogfooding. I don't think it would be good for my software or my customers if I didn't use the same operating system as them. Besides, work-related activities are mostly what I use a computer for, so I'm not sure what I would even do with Linux.

blitzar 2y ago

Are you sure AES 256-bit hasn't been broken?

hello0904 2y ago
Best practices for password storage use one-way hash functions (like bcrypt, Argon2, or PBKDF2) rather than encryption algorithms like AES. AES is not one way and in theory you can generate 2nd, 3rd, etc. master keys to decrypt. :)
- ethangk 2y ago
  That’s relevant when storing a users password to verify that they’ve entered the correct data, but password managers (which Keychain effectively is, I believe) need to be able to retrieve the original password
  - hello0904 2y ago
    Frankly, you're confusing hashing algorithms, encryption and "IDs". Authentication: "Prove you are you" (hash functions) Secure Storage: "Keep this secret but let me get it back later" (encryption) Identification: "Track who/what this is" (UUIDs/tokens)
    - stouset 2y ago
      You are deeply confused as to how password managers work. Password managers—all password managers—require stored passwords to be encrypted such that they can be decrypted. Otherwise they would have no possibly way to retrieve the stored secret for the sake of submitting it to the verifying party. Best practice for verifiers is to use a one-way memory-hard password hash. Keychain is a password manager.
    - ziddoap 2y ago
      >Secure Storage: "Keep this secret but let me get it back later" (encryption) This is what keychain does. You retrieve the passwords later. So, no. It is not a one-way hash function as you stated.