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At the risk of derailing the conversation down a completely different rabbit hole... As I understand it, only citizens are legally entitled to vote, and voting

At the risk of derailing the conversation down a completely different rabbit hole... As I understand it, only citizens are legally entitled to vote, and voting requires a government-issued ID and the voter to be enrolled. How did they vote and get away with it previously? (also, as per another comment, if you know that this happened then surely they didn't get away with it?)

dataflow 2y ago
> (also, as per another comment, if you know that this happened then surely they didn't get away with it?) Is it possible to steal money from a bank and get away with it? Is it possible to obtain citizenship fraudulently and get away with it? etc. But if they got away with it then how do you know? > How did they vote and get away with it previously? Look it up on Wikipedia? They literally have linked cases from the past: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_fraud_in_the_United_States#Noncitizen_voting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_fraud_in_the_United_... Or look at the most recent case in the news yesterday, which someone already replied with in the other comment: https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/10/30/chinese-university-of-michigan-college-student-voted-presidential-election-michigan-china-benson/75936701007/ https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/elections/20... > At the risk of derailing the conversation down a completely different rabbit hole... This will definitely derail the conversation so I'll just leave my reply at this.
- panarky 2y ago
  It's quite clear that the question is not whether it is possible that an insignificant number of votes are cast fraudulently, because if we're talking about insignificant events, all things are possible. Certainly the question is whether there's any evidence, after endless audits and investigations and lawsuits, that the volume of fraudulent votes is anywhere near large enough to affect the results. Is it possible that someone registered their hamster to vote? Certainly. Is there any evidence whatsoever that tens of thousands of hamsters are casting votes? No.
  - dataflow 2y ago
    > Certainly the question is whether there's any evidence, after endless audits and investigations and lawsuits, that the volume of fraudulent votes is anywhere near large enough to affect the results. (a) Nobody asked that above. (b) You're conflating "do people do X" with "can people do X". Those are two very different questions. There are lots of things that people could easily do frequently, but that they simply don't do frequently. Perhaps because they're just honest, perhaps because they lack sufficient motivation to be dishonest, perhaps because they're worried they might get caught, perhaps because they have better things to do, etc.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - dataflow 2y ago
      I have no idea what the downvotes mean. Are people claiming "can illegal immigrants vote?" is somehow the same question as "are illegal immigrants voting frequently enough to sway the outcome of the election?" Those seem like manifestly different questions, what's so controversial?
      - hombre_fatal 2y ago
        Just seems like willful misinterpretation of the spirit of the question in casual convo to score some sort of point in a game you made up, esp after they clarified the context that their friend really thought it was legal for them to vote.
        dataflow 2y ago
        Their friend was intending to ask about legality, but my whole point was that the question itself doesn't convey that. I was saying that when I saw the quoted question, it seemed to me that it was being interpreted as "can illegal immigrants get away with voting", and they were probably encountering websites saying "illegal aliens are voting!!!", which is obviously confusing, even for someone who already knows it's illegal. Does that make sense? This wasn't me willfully misinterpreting it, this was me literally doing my best to guess what the intention of the question was, based on the question. Now of course after the comment said the answer is an "obvious no" then I finally figured out the intended question was something else (hence my reply), but that's out-of-band information that was in no way conveyed by the query. And my point was that the answer to the question isn't obvious because the meaning of the question itself isn't clear.
melagonster 2y ago
The check between licenses information and database happened after the election.
sharpshadow 2y ago
California passed a bill last month which banned requiring ID for voting, which stirred up the discussion that people without ID or to be more precise illegal immigrants could just vote. I don’t know more details about it but theoretically this would also allow people to vote more than once.
- maweaver 2y ago
  You sent me down a bit of a rabbit hole... you don't have to have ID to vote, but you do have to be registered to vote (which requires ID). So in order for an illegal immigrant to vote, they would need to impersonate a registered voter (and presumably if that person did vote, it would be flagged as multiple votes under the same registration). Not impossible, but not the same as being able to just walk up and vote no questions asked.
  - Izkata 2y ago
    Nope, automatic voter registration through the DMV when getting/updating a driver's license can do it, which they are allowed to have. One of the recent court cases (like within the past few weeks) involved removing people from the list of registered voters who failed to check the "I am a US citizen" box. Driver's license is what most of us use as a government ID anyway.
    - dataflow 2y ago
      Automatic vs. manual doesn't seem relevant? A driver's license is an ID, so if they have that for automatic registration, then they still have an ID. I think your point is that people can just lie about citizenship and get away with it when registering to vote, regardless of when/how it is done? Is that it?
      - Izkata 2y ago
        Registering to vote has been made so easy it can be done by accident. Then months or years later when an election is coming up they'll get a voter card on the mail and think that means they can vote even though they're not legally allowed to vote.

dataflow 2y ago

> (also, as per another comment, if you know that this happened then surely they didn't get away with it?) Is it possible to steal money from a bank and get away with it? Is it possible to obtain citizenship fraudulently and get away with it? etc. But if they got away with it then how do you know? > How did they vote and get away with it previously? Look it up on Wikipedia? They literally have linked cases from the past: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_fraud_in_the_United_States#Noncitizen_voting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_fraud_in_the_United_... Or look at the most recent case in the news yesterday, which someone already replied with in the other comment: https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/10/30/chinese-university-of-michigan-college-student-voted-presidential-election-michigan-china-benson/75936701007/ https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/elections/20... > At the risk of derailing the conversation down a completely different rabbit hole... This will definitely derail the conversation so I'll just leave my reply at this.

panarky 2y ago
It's quite clear that the question is not whether it is possible that an insignificant number of votes are cast fraudulently, because if we're talking about insignificant events, all things are possible. Certainly the question is whether there's any evidence, after endless audits and investigations and lawsuits, that the volume of fraudulent votes is anywhere near large enough to affect the results. Is it possible that someone registered their hamster to vote? Certainly. Is there any evidence whatsoever that tens of thousands of hamsters are casting votes? No.
- dataflow 2y ago
  > Certainly the question is whether there's any evidence, after endless audits and investigations and lawsuits, that the volume of fraudulent votes is anywhere near large enough to affect the results. (a) Nobody asked that above. (b) You're conflating "do people do X" with "can people do X". Those are two very different questions. There are lots of things that people could easily do frequently, but that they simply don't do frequently. Perhaps because they're just honest, perhaps because they lack sufficient motivation to be dishonest, perhaps because they're worried they might get caught, perhaps because they have better things to do, etc.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - dataflow 2y ago
    I have no idea what the downvotes mean. Are people claiming "can illegal immigrants vote?" is somehow the same question as "are illegal immigrants voting frequently enough to sway the outcome of the election?" Those seem like manifestly different questions, what's so controversial?
    - hombre_fatal 2y ago
      Just seems like willful misinterpretation of the spirit of the question in casual convo to score some sort of point in a game you made up, esp after they clarified the context that their friend really thought it was legal for them to vote.
      - dataflow 2y ago
        Their friend was intending to ask about legality, but my whole point was that the question itself doesn't convey that. I was saying that when I saw the quoted question, it seemed to me that it was being interpreted as "can illegal immigrants get away with voting", and they were probably encountering websites saying "illegal aliens are voting!!!", which is obviously confusing, even for someone who already knows it's illegal. Does that make sense? This wasn't me willfully misinterpreting it, this was me literally doing my best to guess what the intention of the question was, based on the question. Now of course after the comment said the answer is an "obvious no" then I finally figured out the intended question was something else (hence my reply), but that's out-of-band information that was in no way conveyed by the query. And my point was that the answer to the question isn't obvious because the meaning of the question itself isn't clear.

melagonster 2y ago

The check between licenses information and database happened after the election.

sharpshadow 2y ago

California passed a bill last month which banned requiring ID for voting, which stirred up the discussion that people without ID or to be more precise illegal immigrants could just vote. I don’t know more details about it but theoretically this would also allow people to vote more than once.

maweaver 2y ago
You sent me down a bit of a rabbit hole... you don't have to have ID to vote, but you do have to be registered to vote (which requires ID). So in order for an illegal immigrant to vote, they would need to impersonate a registered voter (and presumably if that person did vote, it would be flagged as multiple votes under the same registration). Not impossible, but not the same as being able to just walk up and vote no questions asked.
- Izkata 2y ago
  Nope, automatic voter registration through the DMV when getting/updating a driver's license can do it, which they are allowed to have. One of the recent court cases (like within the past few weeks) involved removing people from the list of registered voters who failed to check the "I am a US citizen" box. Driver's license is what most of us use as a government ID anyway.
  - dataflow 2y ago
    Automatic vs. manual doesn't seem relevant? A driver's license is an ID, so if they have that for automatic registration, then they still have an ID. I think your point is that people can just lie about citizenship and get away with it when registering to vote, regardless of when/how it is done? Is that it?
    - Izkata 2y ago
      Registering to vote has been made so easy it can be done by accident. Then months or years later when an election is coming up they'll get a voter card on the mail and think that means they can vote even though they're not legally allowed to vote.