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I'm a full-time RVer and see this all the time with diesel trucks. The trucks get "deleted" and modded for more power and to disable the DEF system. Almost ever

I'm a full-time RVer and see this all the time with diesel trucks. The trucks get "deleted" and modded for more power and to disable the DEF system. Almost everyone I've known throughout the years begins having transmission trouble within months, especially after heavy load. A few swear by it. I've got a very expensive Cummins and I'm hellbent to leave it stock (and under warranty).

m463 2y ago
I swear the older pre-def cummins engines got like 15% more mpg than the def ones. but RVs have been getting heavier too.
- jabl 2y ago
  AFAIU modern diesels have lower combustion temperatures in order to limit NOx formation. I imagine this comes at a cost in thermodynamic efficiency. Similarly particle filters, catalytic converters and whatnot reduce efficiency via exhaust backpressure. So all in all, reducing non-CO2 emissions do come at a cost in CO2 emissions (or fuel consumed, if you like). Is it as much as 15%? No idea.. And is it all worth it? I'd argue yes, old-school diesel exhaust is nasty stuff.
  - TylerE 2y ago
    Exhaust back pressure is not an issue at all on diesels because they all run big turbos. As for your later point...I very much concur. I started masking (n95) during the pandemic, and haven't stopped. I have a... large number of health issues including several respiratory ones. Exhaust in general really is nasty stuff. I live in pretty quiet smallish (100k) town, and it can be bad enough around here with all the pollen, but I wasnt recently on a whirlwind trip through the north east that saw me visit the dense urban cores of DC, Philly, Manhattan, and Boston. The difference in odor on the occasions I'd take my mask off on the sidewalk were kinda shocking as someone not used to it.
    - jabl 2y ago
      > Exhaust back pressure is not an issue at all on diesels because they all run big turbos. Not sure what you're arguing here. Isn't it quite obvious that resistance in the exhaust system means that the engine has to do more work to push the exhaust gases out; work that otherwise could be used to turn the crankshaft. Now of course a lot of that extra energy is wasted in any case, particularly if there's nothing like a turbocharger to make use of it.
      - TylerE 2y ago
        Practically all diesels have turbos. You have literally have to go back to tiny tractor engines form The 60s to Find ones that aren’t. Turbos already provide a ton of back pressure. What’s downstream of that is pretty irrelevant
        12thhandyman 2y ago
        Ford and VW put a naturally aspirated diesel into their vehicles up until the early/mid 90s.
        TylerE 2y ago
        Absolutely none of which have DPFs or EGRs.
        lupusreal 2y ago
        Backpressure to the turbo reduces the efficiency of the turbo, no?
        jcgrillo 2y ago
        My tractor from the early 00s doesn't have a turbo. Plenty of VW and Mercedes Benz cars built in the 80s and 90s don't have turbos. Backpressure aft of the turbo is something you really want to avoid because it makes the turbine much less effective. The whole point is to use a pressure and thermal gradient to do work.
    - 2y ago
  - bri3d 2y ago
    Yes, this is the exact trade from Dieselgate, as well - higher combustion temperatures increase efficiency, reducing CO2 output, but at the expense of much higher NOx production. It’s easily 15% or more.
  - 12thhandyman 2y ago
    I’m curious how combustion temperatures are lowered like you say - is it a pv=nrt relationship hinging on changes in compression ratio or something like injector technology?
    - jabl 2y ago
      Yes, the latest generation diesel engines have lower compression ration than engines from a couple decades ago. Maybe something like 16:1 instead of 19:1. But also exhaust gas recirculation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhaust_gas_recirculation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhaust_gas_recirculation
  - throwaway48476 2y ago
    I was under the impression the engine had to be run hotter in order to break down the NOx particulates in the exhaust gas recirculation scheme which led to higher fuel burn.
    - themaninthedark 2y ago
      No, it is a lower temp which results in less burn hence the need to recirculate the exhaust back through to completely burn it....
      - m463 2y ago
        hmmm interesting. In a gasoline engine with high temperatures, NOx is produced, but it is fixed by the catalytic converter. So I guess that's not possible with a diesel, so they have to lower temperatures. That must lower the efficiency of the engine because (I think) the temperature difference governs efficiency.
        themaninthedark 2y ago
        https://www.natso.com/what-is-the-difference-between-exhaust-gas-recirculation-and-selective-catalytic-reduction/ https://www.natso.com/what-is-the-difference-between-exhaust... Here is a quick overview of how the system works. Currently only smaller engines are EGR+DPF only. It takes having an SCR(&DEF) system to reduce emissions to legal limits on most larger engines now and the technology has been combined to have an engine with EGR+DPF&SCR(&DEF). There are issues with engines and the active regeneration that has to occur in order to clean the DPF(basically engine has to get very hot and burn out the buildup) and also issues with DEF, which is an ammonia solution, both with the electronic dosing units failing and solution purity.
iamtheworstdev 2y ago
the issue isnt that they disabled their DEF system or deleted their DPF or EGR, it's that they probably installed new ECUs or flashed new fuel maps or something and boosted the power beyond the torque abilities of the transmission attached. In a lot of diesel RVs the transmissions are normally good to 2,000lb-ft, but the engines can be pushed beyond that pretty easily.
- Moto7451 2y ago
  My truck owning friends like to blow through transmissions at 50-60K miles by driving their trucks like sports cars and aggressively short shifting while on power. None of them do “truck things” so it’s always a head scratcher as to why they continue to do this.
jcgrillo 2y ago
The U.S. diesel tuning crowd seemingly never discuss air/fuel ratios. This is a huge mistake. Also it's important to understand how much torque your transmission is rated for and to not stray beyond it. It's possible to reliably extract more performance than the manufacturer supplied but you have to understand what you're getting into. Turning it up to 11 and "rolling coal" is gonna get expensive, and it's super dumb.
- 12thhandyman 2y ago
  I disagree the diesel crowd doesn’t discuss air/fuel ratios but perhaps I’m misunderstanding something. Sizes and types of turbos, fuel pumps, injector nozzles are frequently discussed. I do agree rolling coal is dumb but most/many daily diesel drivers don’t like it either, have always seen it as kind of a high school thing.
  - jcgrillo 2y ago
    Maybe they've wisened up more recently but I've never seen an AFR gauge in a tuned diesel in the U.S., however they're as common as EGT and boost pressure monitoring elsewhere.
    - potato3732842 2y ago
      You can infer the same information it would get you via boost and EGT and whether or not your exhaust visually indicates unburnt fuel. You also don't need super precise AFR in a diesel like you do a high strung turbo gas engine. Wide band O2 sensors are unreliably enough that they're kind of a pain to keep working accurately long term if you're not on a racecar maintenance schedule and if you aren't tuning things to those extremes you don't need that level of precision anyway. Basically it just kinda adds up to "not worth it" for street vehicles
- potato3732842 2y ago
  Really depends on which crowd you're talking about. The "I bought a tuner" or "I bought a kit" guys don't care or know enough to care. Once you start talking about people who are reading turbo specs and whatnot people do very much care (because turbos and injectors are expensive and you want them both to be compatible so they get the most out of each other).
dredmorbius 2y ago
DEF system: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_exhaust_fluid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_exhaust_fluid> (Emissions control, reduces NOx in diesel exhaust.)
potato3732842 2y ago
Those people are outnumbered 100:1 by people who simply deleted their trucks when the relevant parts gave them problem and kept the power at stock levels. Those people don't have a reason to brag anything like the "muh 100hp tune" people do so you don't hear about them.

m463 2y ago

I swear the older pre-def cummins engines got like 15% more mpg than the def ones. but RVs have been getting heavier too.

jabl 2y ago
AFAIU modern diesels have lower combustion temperatures in order to limit NOx formation. I imagine this comes at a cost in thermodynamic efficiency. Similarly particle filters, catalytic converters and whatnot reduce efficiency via exhaust backpressure. So all in all, reducing non-CO2 emissions do come at a cost in CO2 emissions (or fuel consumed, if you like). Is it as much as 15%? No idea.. And is it all worth it? I'd argue yes, old-school diesel exhaust is nasty stuff.
- TylerE 2y ago
  Exhaust back pressure is not an issue at all on diesels because they all run big turbos. As for your later point...I very much concur. I started masking (n95) during the pandemic, and haven't stopped. I have a... large number of health issues including several respiratory ones. Exhaust in general really is nasty stuff. I live in pretty quiet smallish (100k) town, and it can be bad enough around here with all the pollen, but I wasnt recently on a whirlwind trip through the north east that saw me visit the dense urban cores of DC, Philly, Manhattan, and Boston. The difference in odor on the occasions I'd take my mask off on the sidewalk were kinda shocking as someone not used to it.
  - jabl 2y ago
    > Exhaust back pressure is not an issue at all on diesels because they all run big turbos. Not sure what you're arguing here. Isn't it quite obvious that resistance in the exhaust system means that the engine has to do more work to push the exhaust gases out; work that otherwise could be used to turn the crankshaft. Now of course a lot of that extra energy is wasted in any case, particularly if there's nothing like a turbocharger to make use of it.
    - TylerE 2y ago
      Practically all diesels have turbos. You have literally have to go back to tiny tractor engines form The 60s to Find ones that aren’t. Turbos already provide a ton of back pressure. What’s downstream of that is pretty irrelevant
      - 12thhandyman 2y ago
        Ford and VW put a naturally aspirated diesel into their vehicles up until the early/mid 90s.
        TylerE 2y ago
        Absolutely none of which have DPFs or EGRs.
      - lupusreal 2y ago
        Backpressure to the turbo reduces the efficiency of the turbo, no?
      - jcgrillo 2y ago
        My tractor from the early 00s doesn't have a turbo. Plenty of VW and Mercedes Benz cars built in the 80s and 90s don't have turbos. Backpressure aft of the turbo is something you really want to avoid because it makes the turbine much less effective. The whole point is to use a pressure and thermal gradient to do work.
  - 2y ago
- bri3d 2y ago
  Yes, this is the exact trade from Dieselgate, as well - higher combustion temperatures increase efficiency, reducing CO2 output, but at the expense of much higher NOx production. It’s easily 15% or more.
- 12thhandyman 2y ago
  I’m curious how combustion temperatures are lowered like you say - is it a pv=nrt relationship hinging on changes in compression ratio or something like injector technology?
  - jabl 2y ago
    Yes, the latest generation diesel engines have lower compression ration than engines from a couple decades ago. Maybe something like 16:1 instead of 19:1. But also exhaust gas recirculation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhaust_gas_recirculation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhaust_gas_recirculation
- throwaway48476 2y ago
  I was under the impression the engine had to be run hotter in order to break down the NOx particulates in the exhaust gas recirculation scheme which led to higher fuel burn.
  - themaninthedark 2y ago
    No, it is a lower temp which results in less burn hence the need to recirculate the exhaust back through to completely burn it....
    - m463 2y ago
      hmmm interesting. In a gasoline engine with high temperatures, NOx is produced, but it is fixed by the catalytic converter. So I guess that's not possible with a diesel, so they have to lower temperatures. That must lower the efficiency of the engine because (I think) the temperature difference governs efficiency.
      - themaninthedark 2y ago
        https://www.natso.com/what-is-the-difference-between-exhaust-gas-recirculation-and-selective-catalytic-reduction/ https://www.natso.com/what-is-the-difference-between-exhaust... Here is a quick overview of how the system works. Currently only smaller engines are EGR+DPF only. It takes having an SCR(&DEF) system to reduce emissions to legal limits on most larger engines now and the technology has been combined to have an engine with EGR+DPF&SCR(&DEF). There are issues with engines and the active regeneration that has to occur in order to clean the DPF(basically engine has to get very hot and burn out the buildup) and also issues with DEF, which is an ammonia solution, both with the electronic dosing units failing and solution purity.

iamtheworstdev 2y ago

the issue isnt that they disabled their DEF system or deleted their DPF or EGR, it's that they probably installed new ECUs or flashed new fuel maps or something and boosted the power beyond the torque abilities of the transmission attached. In a lot of diesel RVs the transmissions are normally good to 2,000lb-ft, but the engines can be pushed beyond that pretty easily.

Moto7451 2y ago
My truck owning friends like to blow through transmissions at 50-60K miles by driving their trucks like sports cars and aggressively short shifting while on power. None of them do “truck things” so it’s always a head scratcher as to why they continue to do this.

jcgrillo 2y ago

The U.S. diesel tuning crowd seemingly never discuss air/fuel ratios. This is a huge mistake. Also it's important to understand how much torque your transmission is rated for and to not stray beyond it. It's possible to reliably extract more performance than the manufacturer supplied but you have to understand what you're getting into. Turning it up to 11 and "rolling coal" is gonna get expensive, and it's super dumb.

12thhandyman 2y ago
I disagree the diesel crowd doesn’t discuss air/fuel ratios but perhaps I’m misunderstanding something. Sizes and types of turbos, fuel pumps, injector nozzles are frequently discussed. I do agree rolling coal is dumb but most/many daily diesel drivers don’t like it either, have always seen it as kind of a high school thing.
- jcgrillo 2y ago
  Maybe they've wisened up more recently but I've never seen an AFR gauge in a tuned diesel in the U.S., however they're as common as EGT and boost pressure monitoring elsewhere.
  - potato3732842 2y ago
    You can infer the same information it would get you via boost and EGT and whether or not your exhaust visually indicates unburnt fuel. You also don't need super precise AFR in a diesel like you do a high strung turbo gas engine. Wide band O2 sensors are unreliably enough that they're kind of a pain to keep working accurately long term if you're not on a racecar maintenance schedule and if you aren't tuning things to those extremes you don't need that level of precision anyway. Basically it just kinda adds up to "not worth it" for street vehicles
potato3732842 2y ago
Really depends on which crowd you're talking about. The "I bought a tuner" or "I bought a kit" guys don't care or know enough to care. Once you start talking about people who are reading turbo specs and whatnot people do very much care (because turbos and injectors are expensive and you want them both to be compatible so they get the most out of each other).

dredmorbius 2y ago

DEF system: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_exhaust_fluid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_exhaust_fluid> (Emissions control, reduces NOx in diesel exhaust.)

potato3732842 2y ago

Those people are outnumbered 100:1 by people who simply deleted their trucks when the relevant parts gave them problem and kept the power at stock levels. Those people don't have a reason to brag anything like the "muh 100hp tune" people do so you don't hear about them.