6 ms·

I genuinely think Kagi has led the way on this one. Simplicity is beautiful and effective, and Kagi has (IMHO) absolutely nailed it with their AI approach. It

I genuinely think Kagi has led the way on this one. Simplicity is beautiful and effective, and Kagi has (IMHO) absolutely nailed it with their AI approach. It's one of those things that in hindsight seems obvious, which is a pretty good measure of how good an idea is IMHO. Google could have done it and kind of tried, although they're AI sucks too much. I'm very surprised that OpenAI hasn't done this sooner as well. They're initial implementation of web search was sad. I don't mean to be super critical as I think generally OpenAI is very, very good at what they do, but they're initial browse the web was a giant hack that I would expect from an intern who isn't being given good guidance by their mentors. Once mainstream engines start getting on par with Kagi, there's gonna be a massive wave of destruction and opportunity. I'm guessing there will be a lot of new pay walls popping up, and lots of access deals with the search engines. This will even further raise the barrier of entry for new search entrants, and will further fragment information access between the haves and have-nots. I'm also cautiously optimistic though. We'll get there, but it's gonna be a bit shakey for a minute or two.

alfalfasprout 2y ago
Yep, I was incredibly skeptical about Kagi but I tried it and never looked back. Now my wife, friends, and several coworkers are customers. The chatgpt approach to search just feels forced and not as intuitive.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 2y ago
  Once Kagi implements location aware search that is actually useful I’ll be interested in Kagi. That’s what made me leave the engine besides loving it otherwise.
  - lstamour 2y ago
    Google Maps is quite the moat. I suspect they'll need to find a way to license the data, e.g. via API. Apple has not (yet) been as successful at building out a database of local places with reliable hours of operations, reviews, etc.
    - pzmarzly 2y ago
      There already is an official Google Maps API, but it is already very expensive with prices rising from time to time. There is no other company (other than maybe Meta) that has this much POI data in the western world. So that is a solid advantage that Google is going to have, but the maps business alone wouldn't be able to keep it in the S&P list for long.
      - carlosjobim 2y ago
        Why not? I can see a future where Maps becomes the core of Google's business. It's already their strongest offering, together with YouTube. In every other field Google has been beaten.
  - sbeckeriv 2y ago
    If you go to maps.kagi.com and in allow access to your location local results should be better. If it doesnt ask for access to your location there is a small icon on bottom right hand side that shows if it has access.
    - lolinder 2y ago
      That's great if I'm trying to find a location, but that's not what local results is about. Local results means that if I search for "driving laws", Google gives me .gov sites for my state as the top results, while Kagi's first page gives me results for 8 other states (including Alaska!) but not for my state. There are a lot of kinds of queries that benefit from knowing the user's location even though they aren't actually looking for a place that exists on a map. (I'm a happy paying Kagi user, but OP is right that this is its weakest point by far.)
      - SOLAR_FIELDS 2y ago
        For what it’s worth DuckDuckGo is flawed in the exact same way. I ended up leaving DDG for the exact same reason years ago
        TRiG_Ireland 2y ago
        The entire selling point of DDG is that its search results are not personalised. This is not a flaw.
        GeneralMayhem 2y ago
        Personalized != contextualized. You could have a search engine that uses geolocation without building any sort of cross-request profile on the individual making the search.
        lolinder 2y ago
        But OP is right that this would actually be serving their target demographic less well than serving everyone the same results regardless of context. The fact that the results don't know where the user is is reassuring for the kind of user who wants to use a privacy-oriented search engine, regardless of whether localized results could technically be provided in a privacy-preserving way.
  - abhgh 2y ago
    Same here - I do a lot of location aware searches. When I left Kagi after trying it out for a while, I wrote a detailed feedback hoping it would be useful to the Kagi team.
ahmedbaracat 2y ago
Are you referring to Kagi Assistant? https://help.kagi.com/kagi/ai/assistant.html https://help.kagi.com/kagi/ai/assistant.html
- freedomben 2y ago
  I am referring to all of their AI stuff, kagi assistant included. Personally, the best feature is the quick answer. It essentially scans the top several hits and uses an llm, reads them to see if it answers your question, and will display a summary that also includes links to the full source. I find that feature to be wonderful. I will usually look through the quick answer and see if the site actually answers the question I have, and then we'll click through. If everyone implemented it like this, it's possible it could save the current model.
gr__or 2y ago
I don’t understand how it’s different to Perplexity, looks pretty much the same. Can you enlighten me?
- radicality 2y ago
  Not op, but Kagi user. Also have perplexity but usually use kagi. I would say: 1) The UI. You’re still performing normal searches in Kagi. But if you hit q, or end your query with a question mark, you get an llm synthesized answer at the top, but can still browse and click through the normal search results. 2) Kagi has personalization, ie you uprank/downrank/block domains, so the synthesized llm answer should usually be better because it has your personalized search as input.
  - disqard 2y ago
    Paying customer of Kagi here. In addition to all that's been written above, you can configure personal filters, so that (for example) you never ever see a pinterest page in your search results. Things like that are IMO killer features today.
hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
> I'm also cautiously optimistic though. We'll get there, but it's gonna be a bit shakey for a minute or two. But I don't understand how all of these AI results (note I haven't used Kagi so I don't know if it's different) don't fundamentally and irretrievably break the economics of the web. The "old deal" if you will is that many publishers would put stuff out on the web for free, but then with the hope that they could monetize it (somehow, even just with something like AdSense ads) on the backend. This "deal" was already getting a lot worse over the past years as Google had done more and more to keep people from ever needing to click through in the first place. Sure, these AI results have citation results, but the click-through rates are probably abysmal. Why would anyone ever publish stuff on the web for free unless it was just a hobby? There are a lot of high quality sites that need some return (quality creators need to eat) to be feasible, and those have to start going away. I mean, personally, for recipes I always start with ChatGPT now (I get just the recipe instead of "the history of the domestication of the tomato" that Google essentially forced on recipe sites for SEO competitive reasons), but why would any site now ever want to publish (or create) new high quality recipes? Can someone please explain how the open web, at least the part of the web the requires some sort of viable funding model for creators, can survive this?
- generalizations 2y ago
  > Why would anyone ever publish stuff on the web for free unless it was just a hobby That's exactly what the old deal was, and it's what made the old web so good. If every paid or ad-funded site died tomorrow, the web would be pretty much healed.
  - 6510 2y ago
    To quote Prince: ahh, now people can finally go back to making music for the sake of making music.
  - cushpush 2y ago
    Paging Sergey
  - jascha_eng 2y ago
crabmusket 2y ago
I wouldn't usually point this out, but as you did it repeatedly: "they're" is a contraction of "they are". You're looking for the possessive, "their". - Your local grammar pedant
pensatoio 2y ago
I gave Kagi a shot two weeks ago, and it instantly impressed me. I didn't realize how much search could be improved. It's a beautiful, helpful experience.
- ericd 2y ago
  Yeah, it’s wonderful. Especially once you take the time to up/downrank domains.
kman82 2y ago
[flagged]
- tempest_ 2y ago
  I know the internet lately incentivizes low effort comments like this but be better.
justinclift 2y ago
> absolutely nailed it with their AI approach. Thankfully, Kagi also have a toggle to completely turn that crap (AI) off so it never appears. Personally, I have absolutely no use for a product that can randomly generate false information. I'm not even interested until that's solved. (If/when it ever is though, at that point I'm open to taking a look) So yeah, Kagi definitely "leads the way" on this. By giving the user a choice to not waste time presenting AI crap. :)
- bdangubic 2y ago
  You have no use for a product that can randomly generate false information but you trust google to provide you with search results based on how much they were paid for those keywords?… give me ai hallucinations over google every day of the week and twice on sunday…
  - Barrin92 2y ago
    >but you trust google to provide you with search results based on how much they were paid for those keywords? Google isn't paid for keywords, that's not how search works. They sell ad space, Google does not rank up search content for payment. And also the obvious point is, you don't need to trust Google because they merely point you to content, they don't produce the content. They're an index for real existing content on the web which you can judge for yourself. A search index unlike an AI model, does not output uniform or even synthetic content.
    - hedora 2y ago
      Google makes money if you click through to a site that displays Google ads. This includes doubleclick, which is pay per impression and is owned by Google.
    - bdangubic 2y ago
      “Google does not rank search content for payment” might be the funniest thing I read all year on this site…
  - 2y ago
skipants 2y ago
Could it be that Kagi benefits from being niche, though? Google search gets gamed because it’s the most popular and therefore gaming it gives the best return. I wonder if Kagi would have the same issues if it was the top dog.
- lolinder 2y ago
  I think they absolutely benefit from being niche, but there are a few other things they have going for them that won't go away if they become popular: * They're not ad funded. Sergey Brin and Larry Page called this out in 1998 and it is just as true as ever: you need the economics to align. Kagi wins if people keep paying for it. Google wins if you click on Search ads or if you visit a page filled with their non-Search ads. * Partially because of the economic alignment, Kagi has robust features for customizing your search results. The classic example is that you can block Pinterest, but it also allows gentler up- and down-weights. I have Wikipedia get a boost whenever its results are relevant, which is by itself a huge improvement over Google lately. Meanwhile, I don't see Fandom wikis unless there's absolutely nothing else. I hope to see more innovation from Kagi in the customization side of things, because I think that's what's going to make the biggest difference in preventing SEO gaming. If users can react instantly to block your site because it's filled with garbage, then it won't matter as much if you find a brief exploit that gets you into the first page of the natural search results. On Google Fandom is impossible to avoid. On Kagi it just takes one click.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

alfalfasprout 2y ago

Yep, I was incredibly skeptical about Kagi but I tried it and never looked back. Now my wife, friends, and several coworkers are customers. The chatgpt approach to search just feels forced and not as intuitive.

SOLAR_FIELDS 2y ago
Once Kagi implements location aware search that is actually useful I’ll be interested in Kagi. That’s what made me leave the engine besides loving it otherwise.
- lstamour 2y ago
  Google Maps is quite the moat. I suspect they'll need to find a way to license the data, e.g. via API. Apple has not (yet) been as successful at building out a database of local places with reliable hours of operations, reviews, etc.
  - pzmarzly 2y ago
    There already is an official Google Maps API, but it is already very expensive with prices rising from time to time. There is no other company (other than maybe Meta) that has this much POI data in the western world. So that is a solid advantage that Google is going to have, but the maps business alone wouldn't be able to keep it in the S&P list for long.
    - carlosjobim 2y ago
      Why not? I can see a future where Maps becomes the core of Google's business. It's already their strongest offering, together with YouTube. In every other field Google has been beaten.
- sbeckeriv 2y ago
  If you go to maps.kagi.com and in allow access to your location local results should be better. If it doesnt ask for access to your location there is a small icon on bottom right hand side that shows if it has access.
  - lolinder 2y ago
    That's great if I'm trying to find a location, but that's not what local results is about. Local results means that if I search for "driving laws", Google gives me .gov sites for my state as the top results, while Kagi's first page gives me results for 8 other states (including Alaska!) but not for my state. There are a lot of kinds of queries that benefit from knowing the user's location even though they aren't actually looking for a place that exists on a map. (I'm a happy paying Kagi user, but OP is right that this is its weakest point by far.)
    - SOLAR_FIELDS 2y ago
      For what it’s worth DuckDuckGo is flawed in the exact same way. I ended up leaving DDG for the exact same reason years ago
      - TRiG_Ireland 2y ago
        The entire selling point of DDG is that its search results are not personalised. This is not a flaw.
        GeneralMayhem 2y ago
        Personalized != contextualized. You could have a search engine that uses geolocation without building any sort of cross-request profile on the individual making the search.
        lolinder 2y ago
        But OP is right that this would actually be serving their target demographic less well than serving everyone the same results regardless of context. The fact that the results don't know where the user is is reassuring for the kind of user who wants to use a privacy-oriented search engine, regardless of whether localized results could technically be provided in a privacy-preserving way.
- abhgh 2y ago
  Same here - I do a lot of location aware searches. When I left Kagi after trying it out for a while, I wrote a detailed feedback hoping it would be useful to the Kagi team.

ahmedbaracat 2y ago

Are you referring to Kagi Assistant? https://help.kagi.com/kagi/ai/assistant.html https://help.kagi.com/kagi/ai/assistant.html

freedomben 2y ago
I am referring to all of their AI stuff, kagi assistant included. Personally, the best feature is the quick answer. It essentially scans the top several hits and uses an llm, reads them to see if it answers your question, and will display a summary that also includes links to the full source. I find that feature to be wonderful. I will usually look through the quick answer and see if the site actually answers the question I have, and then we'll click through. If everyone implemented it like this, it's possible it could save the current model.

gr__or 2y ago

I don’t understand how it’s different to Perplexity, looks pretty much the same. Can you enlighten me?

radicality 2y ago
Not op, but Kagi user. Also have perplexity but usually use kagi. I would say: 1) The UI. You’re still performing normal searches in Kagi. But if you hit q, or end your query with a question mark, you get an llm synthesized answer at the top, but can still browse and click through the normal search results. 2) Kagi has personalization, ie you uprank/downrank/block domains, so the synthesized llm answer should usually be better because it has your personalized search as input.
- disqard 2y ago
  Paying customer of Kagi here. In addition to all that's been written above, you can configure personal filters, so that (for example) you never ever see a pinterest page in your search results. Things like that are IMO killer features today.

hn_throwaway_99 2y ago

> I'm also cautiously optimistic though. We'll get there, but it's gonna be a bit shakey for a minute or two. But I don't understand how all of these AI results (note I haven't used Kagi so I don't know if it's different) don't fundamentally and irretrievably break the economics of the web. The "old deal" if you will is that many publishers would put stuff out on the web for free, but then with the hope that they could monetize it (somehow, even just with something like AdSense ads) on the backend. This "deal" was already getting a lot worse over the past years as Google had done more and more to keep people from ever needing to click through in the first place. Sure, these AI results have citation results, but the click-through rates are probably abysmal. Why would anyone ever publish stuff on the web for free unless it was just a hobby? There are a lot of high quality sites that need some return (quality creators need to eat) to be feasible, and those have to start going away. I mean, personally, for recipes I always start with ChatGPT now (I get just the recipe instead of "the history of the domestication of the tomato" that Google essentially forced on recipe sites for SEO competitive reasons), but why would any site now ever want to publish (or create) new high quality recipes? Can someone please explain how the open web, at least the part of the web the requires some sort of viable funding model for creators, can survive this?

generalizations 2y ago
> Why would anyone ever publish stuff on the web for free unless it was just a hobby That's exactly what the old deal was, and it's what made the old web so good. If every paid or ad-funded site died tomorrow, the web would be pretty much healed.
- 6510 2y ago
  To quote Prince: ahh, now people can finally go back to making music for the sake of making music.
- cushpush 2y ago
  Paging Sergey
- jascha_eng 2y ago

crabmusket 2y ago

I wouldn't usually point this out, but as you did it repeatedly: "they're" is a contraction of "they are". You're looking for the possessive, "their". - Your local grammar pedant

pensatoio 2y ago

I gave Kagi a shot two weeks ago, and it instantly impressed me. I didn't realize how much search could be improved. It's a beautiful, helpful experience.

ericd 2y ago
Yeah, it’s wonderful. Especially once you take the time to up/downrank domains.

kman82 2y ago

[flagged]

tempest_ 2y ago
I know the internet lately incentivizes low effort comments like this but be better.

justinclift 2y ago

> absolutely nailed it with their AI approach. Thankfully, Kagi also have a toggle to completely turn that crap (AI) off so it never appears. Personally, I have absolutely no use for a product that can randomly generate false information. I'm not even interested until that's solved. (If/when it ever is though, at that point I'm open to taking a look) So yeah, Kagi definitely "leads the way" on this. By giving the user a choice to not waste time presenting AI crap. :)

bdangubic 2y ago
You have no use for a product that can randomly generate false information but you trust google to provide you with search results based on how much they were paid for those keywords?… give me ai hallucinations over google every day of the week and twice on sunday…
- Barrin92 2y ago
  >but you trust google to provide you with search results based on how much they were paid for those keywords? Google isn't paid for keywords, that's not how search works. They sell ad space, Google does not rank up search content for payment. And also the obvious point is, you don't need to trust Google because they merely point you to content, they don't produce the content. They're an index for real existing content on the web which you can judge for yourself. A search index unlike an AI model, does not output uniform or even synthetic content.
  - hedora 2y ago
    Google makes money if you click through to a site that displays Google ads. This includes doubleclick, which is pay per impression and is owned by Google.
  - bdangubic 2y ago
    “Google does not rank search content for payment” might be the funniest thing I read all year on this site…
- 2y ago

skipants 2y ago

Could it be that Kagi benefits from being niche, though? Google search gets gamed because it’s the most popular and therefore gaming it gives the best return. I wonder if Kagi would have the same issues if it was the top dog.

lolinder 2y ago
I think they absolutely benefit from being niche, but there are a few other things they have going for them that won't go away if they become popular: * They're not ad funded. Sergey Brin and Larry Page called this out in 1998 and it is just as true as ever: you need the economics to align. Kagi wins if people keep paying for it. Google wins if you click on Search ads or if you visit a page filled with their non-Search ads. * Partially because of the economic alignment, Kagi has robust features for customizing your search results. The classic example is that you can block Pinterest, but it also allows gentler up- and down-weights. I have Wikipedia get a boost whenever its results are relevant, which is by itself a huge improvement over Google lately. Meanwhile, I don't see Fandom wikis unless there's absolutely nothing else. I hope to see more innovation from Kagi in the customization side of things, because I think that's what's going to make the biggest difference in preventing SEO gaming. If users can react instantly to block your site because it's filled with garbage, then it won't matter as much if you find a brief exploit that gets you into the first page of the natural search results. On Google Fandom is impossible to avoid. On Kagi it just takes one click.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]