6 ms·

With Microsoft they only have one other party to depend on, and they know they are a big deal to that party. Heck the rumour is that Microsoft pays Nokia $200

With Microsoft they only have one other party to depend on, and they know they are a big deal to that party. Heck the rumour is that Microsoft pays Nokia $200 per Windows phone shipped. The reality is that the success of Windows phone is tied to the success of Nokia. If using Android Google wouldn't have been able to play favourites much with Nokia. (See how they treat Motorola who they own.) If Nokia was on Android, the success of the platform wouldn't be that relevant to the success of Nokia. So do you want to be a big fish in a little pond where the success of the pond depends on your success, or a small fish in a large pond where you are mostly irrelevant, but have more "control"? Nokia's fundamental problem is that they have difficulty executing on software development. Getting someone else to do substantial chunks of development helps, but I've never seen anything indicating they have figured out development yet. So even if they had gone Android, what evidence is there they would have done it well?

muuh-gnu 14y ago
> So do you want to be a big fish in a little pond But how is this a little pond? Basically every other big player offering Android phones also offer Windows Phones. If Nokia starts making money with windows Phones, everybody else will also start making money with windows phones. If the pond grows, all other fish will also grow and consume the growing pond, so Nokias share will remain the same. The pond is only little as there is no money in it. From all the other big players, only Nokia for some reason limited itself to offering only Windows phones. If they think their Android phones couldn't beat other Android phones, how exactly are their Windows phones supposed to beat other Windows phones? If they somehow can apply a magic formula to make Windows Phones a success, what hinders them from applying that same formula to Android? Nokia didnt want to become just another Android manufacturer and get a small piece of the big Android pie, instead they've become just another Windows Phone manufacturer and will get a small piece of the small Windows Phone pie.
- lawdawg 14y ago
  My interpretation as to why they went with Windows Phone: 1. The $$$, it's hard to turn down more than $1 billion dollars in a year (and probably more per device sold). Just makes the stupid gamble harder to turn down. 2. Nokia can still go with Android at anytime (and maybe they will once their exclusivity contract ends with Microsoft).
  - silvestrov 14y ago
    But $1 billion isn't really that much money for a company of Nokia's size (122,148 employees) when the company goes into a tailspin. It's $8,187 per employee. That's 1-2 months of wages!
    - PakG1 14y ago
      Yes, but if all things are equal, it's still enough money to fund the development of a new phone. Now, the question is all things are equal.
- rogerbinns 14y ago
  > But how is this a little pond? Quick, find Windows in the chart: http://www.asymco.com/2012/02/21/the-opportunity-cost-of-windows-phone/ http://www.asymco.com/2012/02/21/the-opportunity-cost-of-win... There aren't that many Windows phones available and as an example you won't find phones by Samsung, Motorola, Huawei, LG etc. And as the chart above shows what is out there isn't selling. The rising tide lifts all boats arguments is correct, but there is a significant lead time in coming out with new phones. Last time I looked it was around 18 months, so new players jumping in will have a lag of around that much. There is first mover advantage. Nokia's problem is execution, especially with software. Developing for two platforms (Windows and Android) wouldn't have made them any better at it. Better to concentrate your efforts in one place and succeed than spread and fail. I do agree with your speculation as to the future - no matter what they do they won't get too far unless they fix their software development - and to a large degree the platform or how many of them doesn't matter that much except how much work they have to do.
rbanffy 14y ago
> The reality is that the success of Windows phone is tied to the success of Nokia. The difference is that if WP7 fails (and it did, since it'll be replaced by WP8, W8 or whatever the thing is called), Nokia flops and Microsoft walks. It's a classic bacon-and-eggs partnership, where Microsoft brings in the eggs and Nokia is the bacon. > I've never seen anything indicating they have figured out development yet Why would they? They run a third party software stack. > what evidence is there they would have done it well? Not much, really. Meebo was technically impressive and poorly marketed, but then there is Microsoft, with a proven track record of ruining anything non-desktop.
- rogerbinns 14y ago
  If Android or WP failed, Google and Microsoft could both walk. The difference is that if Nokia was on Android and Nokia failed then Android would keep going. If Nokia fails on WP then Microsoft probably walks and that is a huge blow to Microsoft. Google can advertise at you almost irrespective of platform you are using. But Microsoft is getting no relevance (or revenue) when you use the new mobile platforms. It is a mistake to think of the "phone" platforms as phones. They are really a new software platform that coincidentally can sometimes make phone calls (on some of the devices). http://daringfireball.net/2012/07/iphone_disruption_five_years_in http://daringfireball.net/2012/07/iphone_disruption_five_yea... Do you realise that non-desktop (Android, iOS etc) devices/platforms will soon (~2013) outship desktops and that the prognosis is a consequent decline in Microsoft's relevance? That would such an incredibly bad thing for Microsoft to walk away from. http://www.asymco.com/2012/03/02/when-will-the-tablet-market-be-larger-than-the-pc-market/ http://www.asymco.com/2012/03/02/when-will-the-tablet-market... http://www.asymco.com/2012/01/17/the-rise-and-fall-of-personal-computing/ http://www.asymco.com/2012/01/17/the-rise-and-fall-of-person... http://www.asymco.com/2012/06/19/the-evolution-of-the-computing-value-chain/ http://www.asymco.com/2012/06/19/the-evolution-of-the-comput... http://www.asymco.com/2012/05/23/the-pc-market-overview-for-q1/ http://www.asymco.com/2012/05/23/the-pc-market-overview-for-... > They run a third party software stack See platform stuff above. It is all about the software. You'll always want to personalise your offering in some way, even if it is as trivial as changing the default search engine in response to kickbacks. But generally you'll want to do more. Nokia also has divisions like Navteq (maps).
gnaffle 14y ago
It doesn't matter so much how big of a fish you are in the pond, if the pond is really small. Nokia was the biggest fish in the Symbian and Meego pond as well. If WP7 was a runaway success, other manufacturers would flock around it in no time. Do you really think Microsoft is a loyal, dependable long-time partner, based on their previous track record?
heretohelp 14y ago
>treat Motorola who they own. Whom. Who is the subject, whom is the object. In this sentence, 'they' is Google and they are the subject. The 'actor' in the sentence. The 'actor' mistreats and owns the object in this sentence. The proper word to use for the owned object is whom. Sidebar: It is my sincere belief that people who take naturally to the structure and nature of grammar have an easier time programming (I'm a coder).
- janardanyri 14y ago
  'Whom' is a relic of formal and archaic English. You might as well fight the singular 'they' or ending sentences with prepositions. As per Skitt's Law, you might want to watch your sentence fragments and run-ons. ;) See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_%28pronoun%29#Demise_of_whom.3F https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_%28pronoun%29#Demise_of_wh...
  - gonzo 14y ago
    you might want to watch sounding like an ass.
- AYBABTME 14y ago
  What would be your opinion on those who have another mother tongue than english? If they never succeed to master all the details of english grammar, do you consider they are doomed to have a hard time programming?
  - heretohelp 14y ago
    > If they never succeed to master all the details of english grammar, do you consider they are doomed to have a hard time programming? I was actually talking about anybody's ability to master the intricacies of grammar in general, not specific to English. That aside, it's commonly understood that programming without knowing English isolates you greatly and robs you of the opportunity to both collaborate with and benefit from 99% of other programmers. English has been and continues to be the lingua franca of programming.

muuh-gnu 14y ago

> So do you want to be a big fish in a little pond But how is this a little pond? Basically every other big player offering Android phones also offer Windows Phones. If Nokia starts making money with windows Phones, everybody else will also start making money with windows phones. If the pond grows, all other fish will also grow and consume the growing pond, so Nokias share will remain the same. The pond is only little as there is no money in it. From all the other big players, only Nokia for some reason limited itself to offering only Windows phones. If they think their Android phones couldn't beat other Android phones, how exactly are their Windows phones supposed to beat other Windows phones? If they somehow can apply a magic formula to make Windows Phones a success, what hinders them from applying that same formula to Android? Nokia didnt want to become just another Android manufacturer and get a small piece of the big Android pie, instead they've become just another Windows Phone manufacturer and will get a small piece of the small Windows Phone pie.

lawdawg 14y ago
My interpretation as to why they went with Windows Phone: 1. The $$$, it's hard to turn down more than $1 billion dollars in a year (and probably more per device sold). Just makes the stupid gamble harder to turn down. 2. Nokia can still go with Android at anytime (and maybe they will once their exclusivity contract ends with Microsoft).
- silvestrov 14y ago
  But $1 billion isn't really that much money for a company of Nokia's size (122,148 employees) when the company goes into a tailspin. It's $8,187 per employee. That's 1-2 months of wages!
  - PakG1 14y ago
    Yes, but if all things are equal, it's still enough money to fund the development of a new phone. Now, the question is all things are equal.
rogerbinns 14y ago
> But how is this a little pond? Quick, find Windows in the chart: http://www.asymco.com/2012/02/21/the-opportunity-cost-of-windows-phone/ http://www.asymco.com/2012/02/21/the-opportunity-cost-of-win... There aren't that many Windows phones available and as an example you won't find phones by Samsung, Motorola, Huawei, LG etc. And as the chart above shows what is out there isn't selling. The rising tide lifts all boats arguments is correct, but there is a significant lead time in coming out with new phones. Last time I looked it was around 18 months, so new players jumping in will have a lag of around that much. There is first mover advantage. Nokia's problem is execution, especially with software. Developing for two platforms (Windows and Android) wouldn't have made them any better at it. Better to concentrate your efforts in one place and succeed than spread and fail. I do agree with your speculation as to the future - no matter what they do they won't get too far unless they fix their software development - and to a large degree the platform or how many of them doesn't matter that much except how much work they have to do.

rbanffy 14y ago

> The reality is that the success of Windows phone is tied to the success of Nokia. The difference is that if WP7 fails (and it did, since it'll be replaced by WP8, W8 or whatever the thing is called), Nokia flops and Microsoft walks. It's a classic bacon-and-eggs partnership, where Microsoft brings in the eggs and Nokia is the bacon. > I've never seen anything indicating they have figured out development yet Why would they? They run a third party software stack. > what evidence is there they would have done it well? Not much, really. Meebo was technically impressive and poorly marketed, but then there is Microsoft, with a proven track record of ruining anything non-desktop.

rogerbinns 14y ago
If Android or WP failed, Google and Microsoft could both walk. The difference is that if Nokia was on Android and Nokia failed then Android would keep going. If Nokia fails on WP then Microsoft probably walks and that is a huge blow to Microsoft. Google can advertise at you almost irrespective of platform you are using. But Microsoft is getting no relevance (or revenue) when you use the new mobile platforms. It is a mistake to think of the "phone" platforms as phones. They are really a new software platform that coincidentally can sometimes make phone calls (on some of the devices). http://daringfireball.net/2012/07/iphone_disruption_five_years_in http://daringfireball.net/2012/07/iphone_disruption_five_yea... Do you realise that non-desktop (Android, iOS etc) devices/platforms will soon (~2013) outship desktops and that the prognosis is a consequent decline in Microsoft's relevance? That would such an incredibly bad thing for Microsoft to walk away from. http://www.asymco.com/2012/03/02/when-will-the-tablet-market-be-larger-than-the-pc-market/ http://www.asymco.com/2012/03/02/when-will-the-tablet-market... http://www.asymco.com/2012/01/17/the-rise-and-fall-of-personal-computing/ http://www.asymco.com/2012/01/17/the-rise-and-fall-of-person... http://www.asymco.com/2012/06/19/the-evolution-of-the-computing-value-chain/ http://www.asymco.com/2012/06/19/the-evolution-of-the-comput... http://www.asymco.com/2012/05/23/the-pc-market-overview-for-q1/ http://www.asymco.com/2012/05/23/the-pc-market-overview-for-... > They run a third party software stack See platform stuff above. It is all about the software. You'll always want to personalise your offering in some way, even if it is as trivial as changing the default search engine in response to kickbacks. But generally you'll want to do more. Nokia also has divisions like Navteq (maps).

gnaffle 14y ago

It doesn't matter so much how big of a fish you are in the pond, if the pond is really small. Nokia was the biggest fish in the Symbian and Meego pond as well. If WP7 was a runaway success, other manufacturers would flock around it in no time. Do you really think Microsoft is a loyal, dependable long-time partner, based on their previous track record?

heretohelp 14y ago

>treat Motorola who they own. Whom. Who is the subject, whom is the object. In this sentence, 'they' is Google and they are the subject. The 'actor' in the sentence. The 'actor' mistreats and owns the object in this sentence. The proper word to use for the owned object is whom. Sidebar: It is my sincere belief that people who take naturally to the structure and nature of grammar have an easier time programming (I'm a coder).

janardanyri 14y ago
'Whom' is a relic of formal and archaic English. You might as well fight the singular 'they' or ending sentences with prepositions. As per Skitt's Law, you might want to watch your sentence fragments and run-ons. ;) See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_%28pronoun%29#Demise_of_whom.3F https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_%28pronoun%29#Demise_of_wh...
- gonzo 14y ago
  you might want to watch sounding like an ass.
AYBABTME 14y ago
What would be your opinion on those who have another mother tongue than english? If they never succeed to master all the details of english grammar, do you consider they are doomed to have a hard time programming?
- heretohelp 14y ago
  > If they never succeed to master all the details of english grammar, do you consider they are doomed to have a hard time programming? I was actually talking about anybody's ability to master the intricacies of grammar in general, not specific to English. That aside, it's commonly understood that programming without knowing English isolates you greatly and robs you of the opportunity to both collaborate with and benefit from 99% of other programmers. English has been and continues to be the lingua franca of programming.