5 ms·

One follows from the other.

by stonethrowaway 2y ago

MeetingsBrowser 2y ago
Could also be that women are less interested in an industry dominated by people who assume women are inferior
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  It might not just be people assuming they're inferior; it could also be that they have an unwelcoming or uncomfortable culture. For instance, if it's dominated by men who have eccentric interests that the women don't share, that might not seem to be an appealing group to get into. Worse, if it's dominated by men who are all interested in them romantically/sexually to the point where it feels like harassment, that wouldn't be appealing either.
  - lovecg 2y ago
    Whenever I see those arguments about unwelcoming culture of programming, I’m thinking back on how I myself got into it. It was mostly a solitary activity with a lot of reading of manuals and tinkering and whatnot. There was not really a “culture” to not “welcome” me. Is everyone else just way more social about their programming activities? Like you show up to a club and feel shunned?
    - MeetingsBrowser 2y ago
      When you were reading, did you come across people on a popular forum like hackernews claiming you were inferior and did not belong?
      - lovecg 2y ago
        This was mostly pre-internet days. Maybe the internet is just making everything worse.
      - LightHugger 2y ago
        I think we're long past the point where this is a realistic scenario at least in 99% of situations, what does actually still happen though is coming across articles that fearmonger such for profit whether or not it's true. Those articles tell newcomers they are inferior and do not belong while pretending to be on the newcoming reader's side, despite exploiting them.
        MeetingsBrowser 2y ago
        It does still happen today. For example, I was describing the comment that started this thread, where someone implied women are inferior programmers.
        zahlman 2y ago
        >For example, I was describing the comment that started this thread, where someone implied women are inferior programmers. The comment that started this thread did no such thing. In fact, the entire point of that comment was to argue that this is itself an unfair stereotype of the community (i.e. that such a belief is not prevalent). It instead quoted a claim from the article - which indeed implies this in a vague, hand-waving way, by citing another paper. When I look at the abstract for that paper, in turn, I don't actually see the claim asserted; the closest it comes is > Challenges that women face in OSS are mainly social, including lack of peer parity and non-inclusive communication from a toxic culture Also, that paper in turn describes itself as "a survey of the literature". The whole thing comes across to me as an act of citogenesis (https://xkcd.com/978/ https://xkcd.com/978/).
        MeetingsBrowser 2y ago
        https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42002940 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42002940 > One follows from the other There are two ways to interpret this. Either women are naturally worse programmers and that leads to less interest, or they are less interested in programming which makes women worse programmers. Unless I am missing another interpretation, both imply women are worse programmers.
        2y ago
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
    - shiroiushi 2y ago
      First, it's well-known that women are generally more social (or at least, better trained for socialization) then men. So yes, they're naturally going to worry more about a welcoming culture. Second, maybe you got into it as a solitary activity as a child (I did too, long ago), but unless you work at a very, very unusual job, it's not at all a solitary activity these days at any normal company.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
  - _yb2s 2y ago
    Nearly every woman I know in the sciences or engineering has a large number of stories of aggressive and inappropriate sexual advances, and in many cases outright sexual assault or rape in the workplace- typically from people in positions of power over them where they felt their careers were at risk simply from refusing the advances. Moreover, in most cases if they tried to report it or ask for help, even through official organization channels they were told there would be additional consequences if they didn’t keep quiet. My workplace even had a sexual assault in the workplace training course where they coached us to stop co-workers from speaking if they started to disclose being victimized at work, I assume to avoid being legally responsible to respond appropriately.
    - Jensson 2y ago
      > Nearly every woman I know in the sciences or engineering has a large number of stories of aggressive and inappropriate sexual advances, and in many cases outright sexual assault or rape in the workplace That happens about as much in any field as long as you mix genders, so that is no reason to not want a software job.
      - _yb2s 2y ago
        I doubt that, as the less women in a field of work, the more likely an individual woman is to stand out and be targeted. Situations that put you frequently alone in closed offices with a single other person also contribute to the risk. Do you really think kindergarten teachers experience these things at work as often as software engineers?
      - consteval 2y ago
        I disagree, men in computer science are uniquely awkward, unaware, and often rude. I say this as a man in software. It's hard to have a conversation about the weather that doesn't end with me being a bit frustrated. A lot of these guys really don't know how to speak to women, or how to speak in general in a welcoming, calm, non-offensive way. Maybe it's just the company I'm at but be aware this was also the case in college. It was hard to make friends when it seemed everyone was cosplaying an anime character while simultaneously bragging and trying to make me feel bad for my achievements, or lack thereof.
- atmavatar 2y ago
  It could also be that women value work/life balance more than men, while the tech industry is rather infamous for poor work/life balance. The fact that most tech jobs are exempt from overtime in the US doesn't help.
  - _yb2s 2y ago
    It’s not just a matter of values- culturally prescribed gender roles often override peoples personal values and goals. Women are more likely to be legally, socially, and/or biologically required to care for children (the last one refers to breastfeeding and pregnancy). Men also experience more social pressure to be successful at work, or else are seen as not as worthy of respect as people or as romantic partners regardless of their personal goals and values.
benatkin 2y ago
Often it's the opposite. When you aren't very good at something, you have to work twice as hard. I've met plenty of men who thought that programming was cool so they became obsessed with learning how to code without having the innate skills. It mostly doesn't work out, but during that period of time, they were more interested in learning to code than a lot of programmers. And many do try open source. That's why there are a lot of junk pull requests on Hacktoberfest.

One follows from the other.

MeetingsBrowser 2y ago

Could also be that women are less interested in an industry dominated by people who assume women are inferior

shiroiushi 2y ago
It might not just be people assuming they're inferior; it could also be that they have an unwelcoming or uncomfortable culture. For instance, if it's dominated by men who have eccentric interests that the women don't share, that might not seem to be an appealing group to get into. Worse, if it's dominated by men who are all interested in them romantically/sexually to the point where it feels like harassment, that wouldn't be appealing either.
- lovecg 2y ago
  Whenever I see those arguments about unwelcoming culture of programming, I’m thinking back on how I myself got into it. It was mostly a solitary activity with a lot of reading of manuals and tinkering and whatnot. There was not really a “culture” to not “welcome” me. Is everyone else just way more social about their programming activities? Like you show up to a club and feel shunned?
  - MeetingsBrowser 2y ago
    When you were reading, did you come across people on a popular forum like hackernews claiming you were inferior and did not belong?
    - lovecg 2y ago
      This was mostly pre-internet days. Maybe the internet is just making everything worse.
    - LightHugger 2y ago
      I think we're long past the point where this is a realistic scenario at least in 99% of situations, what does actually still happen though is coming across articles that fearmonger such for profit whether or not it's true. Those articles tell newcomers they are inferior and do not belong while pretending to be on the newcoming reader's side, despite exploiting them.
      - MeetingsBrowser 2y ago
        It does still happen today. For example, I was describing the comment that started this thread, where someone implied women are inferior programmers.
        zahlman 2y ago
        >For example, I was describing the comment that started this thread, where someone implied women are inferior programmers. The comment that started this thread did no such thing. In fact, the entire point of that comment was to argue that this is itself an unfair stereotype of the community (i.e. that such a belief is not prevalent). It instead quoted a claim from the article - which indeed implies this in a vague, hand-waving way, by citing another paper. When I look at the abstract for that paper, in turn, I don't actually see the claim asserted; the closest it comes is > Challenges that women face in OSS are mainly social, including lack of peer parity and non-inclusive communication from a toxic culture Also, that paper in turn describes itself as "a survey of the literature". The whole thing comes across to me as an act of citogenesis (https://xkcd.com/978/ https://xkcd.com/978/).
        MeetingsBrowser 2y ago
        https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42002940 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42002940 > One follows from the other There are two ways to interpret this. Either women are naturally worse programmers and that leads to less interest, or they are less interested in programming which makes women worse programmers. Unless I am missing another interpretation, both imply women are worse programmers.
        2y ago
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    First, it's well-known that women are generally more social (or at least, better trained for socialization) then men. So yes, they're naturally going to worry more about a welcoming culture. Second, maybe you got into it as a solitary activity as a child (I did too, long ago), but unless you work at a very, very unusual job, it's not at all a solitary activity these days at any normal company.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
- _yb2s 2y ago
  Nearly every woman I know in the sciences or engineering has a large number of stories of aggressive and inappropriate sexual advances, and in many cases outright sexual assault or rape in the workplace- typically from people in positions of power over them where they felt their careers were at risk simply from refusing the advances. Moreover, in most cases if they tried to report it or ask for help, even through official organization channels they were told there would be additional consequences if they didn’t keep quiet. My workplace even had a sexual assault in the workplace training course where they coached us to stop co-workers from speaking if they started to disclose being victimized at work, I assume to avoid being legally responsible to respond appropriately.
  - Jensson 2y ago
    > Nearly every woman I know in the sciences or engineering has a large number of stories of aggressive and inappropriate sexual advances, and in many cases outright sexual assault or rape in the workplace That happens about as much in any field as long as you mix genders, so that is no reason to not want a software job.
    - _yb2s 2y ago
      I doubt that, as the less women in a field of work, the more likely an individual woman is to stand out and be targeted. Situations that put you frequently alone in closed offices with a single other person also contribute to the risk. Do you really think kindergarten teachers experience these things at work as often as software engineers?
    - consteval 2y ago
      I disagree, men in computer science are uniquely awkward, unaware, and often rude. I say this as a man in software. It's hard to have a conversation about the weather that doesn't end with me being a bit frustrated. A lot of these guys really don't know how to speak to women, or how to speak in general in a welcoming, calm, non-offensive way. Maybe it's just the company I'm at but be aware this was also the case in college. It was hard to make friends when it seemed everyone was cosplaying an anime character while simultaneously bragging and trying to make me feel bad for my achievements, or lack thereof.
atmavatar 2y ago
It could also be that women value work/life balance more than men, while the tech industry is rather infamous for poor work/life balance. The fact that most tech jobs are exempt from overtime in the US doesn't help.
- _yb2s 2y ago
  It’s not just a matter of values- culturally prescribed gender roles often override peoples personal values and goals. Women are more likely to be legally, socially, and/or biologically required to care for children (the last one refers to breastfeeding and pregnancy). Men also experience more social pressure to be successful at work, or else are seen as not as worthy of respect as people or as romantic partners regardless of their personal goals and values.

benatkin 2y ago

Often it's the opposite. When you aren't very good at something, you have to work twice as hard. I've met plenty of men who thought that programming was cool so they became obsessed with learning how to code without having the innate skills. It mostly doesn't work out, but during that period of time, they were more interested in learning to code than a lot of programmers. And many do try open source. That's why there are a lot of junk pull requests on Hacktoberfest.