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Privacy is the new obscenity. What does privacy even mean to you concretely? Answer the question with no additional drama, and I guarantee you either Apple does

Privacy is the new obscenity. What does privacy even mean to you concretely? Answer the question with no additional drama, and I guarantee you either Apple doesn’t deliver what you are asking for, or you are using services from another company, like Google, in a way that the actions speak that you don’t really care about what you are asking for.

lukev 2y ago
End to end encryption by default, such that the cloud provider cannot access my data. Easy.
- doctorpangloss 2y ago
  > End to end encryption by default, such that the cloud provider cannot access my data. The App Store stores a lot of sensitive data about you and is not end-to-end encrypted. They operate it just like everyone else. You also use Gmail, which is just as sensitive as your iMessages, and Gmail is not end-to-end encrypted, so it's not clear you value that as much as you say.
  - lukev 2y ago
    I think "could a creepy admin see my nudes" or "can my messages be mined to create a profile of my preferences" are much more practical working definitions of privacy than "can someone see that I've installed an app". End-to-end encryption is certainly the most relevant feature for these scenarios. App store DRM is a red herring, as a developer I can still run as much untrusted code on my MBP as I want and I don't see that going away any time soon.
    - doctorpangloss 2y ago
      Apple can create a profile of your preferences, for preferences in the sense of things you want to buy. It has your App Store data! > "can someone see that I've installed an app" You say preferences and you didn't say what you mean. One meaning of the word preferences: what if you installed Grindr?
      - lukev 2y ago
        You are saying a lot of words but none of them negate the point that Apple has a better security posture for users than any of the other big tech cos. For any meaningful definition of the word "security." Sure I use gmail, I've been locked in for 15 years. Someday I'll get fed up enough to bite the bullet and move off it.
        doctorpangloss 2y ago
        > Apple has a better security posture for users than any of the other big tech cos. For any meaningful definition of the word "security." Apple can push updates and change the rules on your device at any time. Rooted Android works better in that regard: you can still use Google stuff on rooted devices. Also I don't think Apple's security posture for users in China is better than every "other big tech co." The takeaway for me is that Apple's storytelling is really good. They are doing a good job on taking leadership on a limited set of privacy issues that you can convince busy people to feel strongly about. Whether or not that objectively matters is an open question.
- stouset 2y ago
  It’s honestly not worth engaging with the privacy fundamentalists. They are not arguing in good faith. Apple doesn’t run open hardware, and supports features users want that involve opening a network connection back home? Hard privacy fail.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
jiggawatts 2y ago
There's some weird[1] laws around privacy in Australia, where government departments are blocked from a bunch of things by law. From my perspective as a citizen, this just results in annoyance such as having to fill out forms over and over to give the government data that they already have. I heard a good definition from my dad: "Privacy for me is pedestrians walking past my window not seeing me step out of the shower naked, or my neighbours not overhearing our domestic arguments." Basically, if the nude photos you're taking on your mobile phone can be seen by random people, then you don't have privacy. Apple encrypts my photos so that the IT guy managing the storage servers can't see them. Samsung is the type of company that includes a screen-capture "feature" in their TVs so that they can profile you for ad-targeting. I guarantee you that they've collected and can see the pictures of naked children in the bathtub from when someone used screen mirroring from their phone to show their relatives pictures of their grandkids. That's not privacy. Sure, I use Google services, but I don't upload naked kid pictures to anything owned by Alphabet corp, so no problem. However, I will never buy any Samsung product for any purpose because they laugh and point at customer expectations of privacy. [1] Actually not that weird. Now that I've worked in government departments, I "get" the need for these regulations. Large organisations are made up of individuals, and both the org and the individual people will abuse their access to data for their own benefit. Many such people will even think they're doing the "right thing" while destroying freedom in the process, like people that keep trying to make voting systems traceable... so that vote buying will become easy again.
- doctorpangloss 2y ago
  The most famous leak of nude images that ever "happened" was from iCloud Photos.
  - grvbck 2y ago
    That was the result of social engineering though, not iCloud being compromised. AFAIK it was a phishing scam, asking the victims for their usernames and passwords.
    - doctorpangloss 2y ago

lukev 2y ago

End to end encryption by default, such that the cloud provider cannot access my data. Easy.

doctorpangloss 2y ago
> End to end encryption by default, such that the cloud provider cannot access my data. The App Store stores a lot of sensitive data about you and is not end-to-end encrypted. They operate it just like everyone else. You also use Gmail, which is just as sensitive as your iMessages, and Gmail is not end-to-end encrypted, so it's not clear you value that as much as you say.
- lukev 2y ago
  I think "could a creepy admin see my nudes" or "can my messages be mined to create a profile of my preferences" are much more practical working definitions of privacy than "can someone see that I've installed an app". End-to-end encryption is certainly the most relevant feature for these scenarios. App store DRM is a red herring, as a developer I can still run as much untrusted code on my MBP as I want and I don't see that going away any time soon.
  - doctorpangloss 2y ago
    Apple can create a profile of your preferences, for preferences in the sense of things you want to buy. It has your App Store data! > "can someone see that I've installed an app" You say preferences and you didn't say what you mean. One meaning of the word preferences: what if you installed Grindr?
    - lukev 2y ago
      You are saying a lot of words but none of them negate the point that Apple has a better security posture for users than any of the other big tech cos. For any meaningful definition of the word "security." Sure I use gmail, I've been locked in for 15 years. Someday I'll get fed up enough to bite the bullet and move off it.
      - doctorpangloss 2y ago
        > Apple has a better security posture for users than any of the other big tech cos. For any meaningful definition of the word "security." Apple can push updates and change the rules on your device at any time. Rooted Android works better in that regard: you can still use Google stuff on rooted devices. Also I don't think Apple's security posture for users in China is better than every "other big tech co." The takeaway for me is that Apple's storytelling is really good. They are doing a good job on taking leadership on a limited set of privacy issues that you can convince busy people to feel strongly about. Whether or not that objectively matters is an open question.
stouset 2y ago
It’s honestly not worth engaging with the privacy fundamentalists. They are not arguing in good faith. Apple doesn’t run open hardware, and supports features users want that involve opening a network connection back home? Hard privacy fail.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

jiggawatts 2y ago

There's some weird[1] laws around privacy in Australia, where government departments are blocked from a bunch of things by law. From my perspective as a citizen, this just results in annoyance such as having to fill out forms over and over to give the government data that they already have. I heard a good definition from my dad: "Privacy for me is pedestrians walking past my window not seeing me step out of the shower naked, or my neighbours not overhearing our domestic arguments." Basically, if the nude photos you're taking on your mobile phone can be seen by random people, then you don't have privacy. Apple encrypts my photos so that the IT guy managing the storage servers can't see them. Samsung is the type of company that includes a screen-capture "feature" in their TVs so that they can profile you for ad-targeting. I guarantee you that they've collected and can see the pictures of naked children in the bathtub from when someone used screen mirroring from their phone to show their relatives pictures of their grandkids. That's not privacy. Sure, I use Google services, but I don't upload naked kid pictures to anything owned by Alphabet corp, so no problem. However, I will never buy any Samsung product for any purpose because they laugh and point at customer expectations of privacy. [1] Actually not that weird. Now that I've worked in government departments, I "get" the need for these regulations. Large organisations are made up of individuals, and both the org and the individual people will abuse their access to data for their own benefit. Many such people will even think they're doing the "right thing" while destroying freedom in the process, like people that keep trying to make voting systems traceable... so that vote buying will become easy again.

doctorpangloss 2y ago
The most famous leak of nude images that ever "happened" was from iCloud Photos.
- grvbck 2y ago
  That was the result of social engineering though, not iCloud being compromised. AFAIK it was a phishing scam, asking the victims for their usernames and passwords.
  - doctorpangloss 2y ago