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Only reason they wouldn't take off outside China is the astronomical tariffs the West are putting on Chinese cars (100% in the US). Though depending on the wor

Only reason they wouldn't take off outside China is the astronomical tariffs the West are putting on Chinese cars (100% in the US). Though depending on the wording, they may be able to just build a plant in Mexico and take advantage of NAFTA. I can't tell from the whitehouse post on the tariff if it's tied to country of the manufacturer or just country of origin (usually it's origin).

worik 2y ago
> Only reason they wouldn't take off outside China is the astronomical tariffs the West are putting on Chinese cars Doing very well in New Zealand and Australia The dealers doing even better with 200% markups....
polartx 2y ago
Or if the build quality of their vehicles was not up to par with US regulation or the quality standards the US market is accustomed to..which seems very possible given the connotations generally shared domestically around the phrase “made in china”
- porphyra 2y ago
  The build quality of Chinese electric cars is generally pretty good. In the past "made in Germany" used to have derogatory connotations due to German goods being worse than British ones too. As for regulations, the BYD cars consistently rank very highly on the stringent Euro NCAP tests: https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/byd/seal-u/50187 https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/byd/seal-u/50187
- amrocha 2y ago
  Teslas have a reputation for shoddy quality but they’re still sold in the US, i’m sure BYD will be fine
  - bryanlarsen 2y ago
    Chinese made Tesla's are generally acknowledged to be higher quality than American Tesla's.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- onlyrealcuzzo 2y ago
  "Made in China" in the US typically means "made cheaply" - which, if you look at what people buy, is actually what people typically want. You get what you pay for. In the case of electric cars, China has their own domestic market that actually wants to drive a decent car, and so they are building for that. BYD cars aren't particularly "cheap" in the way a "Made in China" spatula is.
- consteval 2y ago
  In the automotive world, US cars are the ones who have an image of poor quality. GM, Ford, and Tesla are routinely viewed as shoddy and suspiciously built.
echelon 2y ago
> Only reason they wouldn't take off outside China is the astronomical tariffs the West are putting on Chinese cars (100% in the US). They're dumping domestic overproduction on foreign markets. You do that long enough and you can weaken your foreign competitors in their domestic strongholds. This can destroy high-value domestic jobs, lead to atrophy of expertise, and is especially bad to "strategic" sectors of the domestic industrial base. Tariffs are a tool to protect domestic markets against dumping. Every other nation's automotive companies are free to compete in Western markets because they're not actively engaging in dumping. Their competition strengthens domestic rivals because it is fair and on equal footing. Australia doesn't care because it doesn't have a domestic automotive industry to protect, so Chinese overproduction is essentially just foreign subsidized stimulus to the Australian population.
- churchill 2y ago
  Western cope never gets old. Western automakers had the chance to dominate international markets, but they stayed back at home, making overpriced cars for their captive audience of local buyers. Whenever competitors showed up, they laughed at them, before panicking when those upstarts starting challenging their market dominance. It happened with Japan, Korea, and now China. So, if you feel China competes unfairly, close off your markets. Countries without a local auto industry will accept Chinese EVs readily. BYD & co. will snatch American & EU automakers' foreign markets before they come home to swallow you alive by building factories in low-cost countries like Bulgaria, Mexico, & Brazil. Basically, the Toyota cycle will repeat itself because Western (esp. American) automakers spent hundreds of billions on share buybacks instead of R&D.
  - echelon 2y ago
    That is a vast oversimplification that discounts the incredible geopolitical changes over the past 40 years. But at the end of the day, we're protecting our own interests.
    - churchill 2y ago
      I understand - I'm not wishing evil on the West. I want prosperity for all humanity. All I'm saying is that it's shortsightedness and hubris that even got Western automakers (and businesses at large) to this stage. Rest on their laurels, not learning from history, assuming the good times will continue unabated. Just like Jack Welch and General Electric: financialize companies to the max, optimize for quarterly share increases, and earn billion-dollar bonuses. When the company inevitably collapses/shrinks after you retire, it's no longer your business. Whether it's China's foray into nuclear, wind power, carmaking, solar, etc., they simply copy existing Western designs and keep developing them diligently while the incumbents optimize for quarterly earnings.
izend 2y ago
Including Canada (100%) affects the Tesla built in Shanghai that were being imported into Canada.
vitorgrs 2y ago
BYD is also building a factory in Brazil. It's almost ready (the deadline was later this year). The factory stays on the same place of an old Ford factory. Ford left... Fun fact: The street is called Avenue Henry Ford.
bhouston 2y ago
> ...they may be able to just build a plant in Mexico and take advantage of NAFTA. If Trump is elected, expect then NAFTA to be changed to exclude competitors to Tesla in some fashion. There is already a lot of expectations that a Trump win will heavily benefit Elon: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/29/business/economy/elon-musk-trump-tesla.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/29/business/economy/elon-mus...
- FileSorter 2y ago
  God forbid a US automaker benefit for providing Americans jobs
  - _mlbt 2y ago
    Exactly. People are all for globalization until it comes for their specific industry and job. I remember there being a great uproar and gnashing of teeth over the outsourcing of IT jobs to Asia back in the 90s and 00s, yet now there’s something wrong with protecting one of America’s remaining big manufacturing industries.
- bluGill 2y ago
  NAFTA doesn't exist anymore. Trump replaced it with a "I can't believe it isn't NAFTA", I doubt he will reopen that again.
_mlbt 2y ago
For me it’s not so much about the tariffs. Personally, I have concerns about driving a network connected car that is ultimately controlled by one of my country’s main geopolitical adversaries. There is a nonzero chance that if war breaks out between them, best case they spy on me or brick some functionality, and worst case they weaponize a software update to do something malicious. EDIT: Just to clarify, I would love to be wrong about these concerns, as there will be some who do purchase Chinese EVs. Also it is not about xenophobia, it is about geopolitics and cybersecurity. If someone can reply showing me how my concerns about the CCPs ability to weaponize these cars are unfounded, I would greatly appreciate it.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- nujabe 2y ago
  Isn't that a good thing? Personally, I would much rather be spied on by the CCP than the NSA.
  - _mlbt 2y ago
    > Isn't that a good thing? Personally, I would much rather be spied on by the CCP than the NSA. Care to elaborate how being spied upon or worse by the CCP could be a good thing? Additionally, depending upon how any hypothetical CCP back doors get implemented, you might get the NSA and others spying on you as well.
    - nujabe 2y ago
      The objectives of the CCP are primarily geopolitical, they are not interested in handing over information to domestic law enforcement that relates to my personal life. Further they have limited jurisdictional reach, unlike the NSA.
  - solumunus 2y ago
    What a foolish remark.
tivert 2y ago
> Only reason they wouldn't take off outside China is the astronomical tariffs the West are putting on Chinese cars (100% in the US). Yeah, due to Chinese state subsidies and other assistance, China has a competitive advantage in automobile manufacturing as well as in many other areas. The US needs to show its commitment to free market principles and lets its auto industry die already.
- freeone3000 2y ago
  It would probably be better for the consumer.
  - IncreasePosts 2y ago
    Better for the consumer in the brief period before they are ripped off repeatedly due to lack of competition after the subsidies are not passed to the consumer.
- jajko 2y ago
  The ideal 'free market' you are referring to doesn't exist in real world. Every single country out there champions their own companies, giving them as much unfair advantage as they can while punishing any competition as much as possible, for mostly good and rational reasons. US is no different. The rest is history, and thats written by victors. Even say EU vs US is not so rosy in trade wars. Remember how German government played down VW's dieselgate? Every single state has something similar, even if not on same scale.
- thefaux 2y ago
  That seems crazy to me unless we're prepared to rebuild our infrastructure to allow a majority of the populace to live car free. Otherwise completely eliminating our auto industry would be an enormous national security risk.
  - tivert 2y ago
    > Otherwise completely eliminating our auto industry would be an enormous national security risk. But I have been told zealous adherence to free market dogma will guarantee national security, without explicitly considering it! [Also, I'm being sarcastic. I thought people would pick up on the double-standard in my original comment, but I guess free marketers can be that kooky sometimes. Everyone should realize by now China is playing a different game vis-a-vis trade than the free marketers want to play.]
tim333 2y ago
BYD have said they don't want to push export to countries where they are not wanted politically. They seem quite engineering focused which seems to be serving them well.

worik 2y ago

> Only reason they wouldn't take off outside China is the astronomical tariffs the West are putting on Chinese cars Doing very well in New Zealand and Australia The dealers doing even better with 200% markups....

polartx 2y ago

Or if the build quality of their vehicles was not up to par with US regulation or the quality standards the US market is accustomed to..which seems very possible given the connotations generally shared domestically around the phrase “made in china”

porphyra 2y ago
The build quality of Chinese electric cars is generally pretty good. In the past "made in Germany" used to have derogatory connotations due to German goods being worse than British ones too. As for regulations, the BYD cars consistently rank very highly on the stringent Euro NCAP tests: https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/byd/seal-u/50187 https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/byd/seal-u/50187
amrocha 2y ago
Teslas have a reputation for shoddy quality but they’re still sold in the US, i’m sure BYD will be fine
- bryanlarsen 2y ago
  Chinese made Tesla's are generally acknowledged to be higher quality than American Tesla's.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
onlyrealcuzzo 2y ago
"Made in China" in the US typically means "made cheaply" - which, if you look at what people buy, is actually what people typically want. You get what you pay for. In the case of electric cars, China has their own domestic market that actually wants to drive a decent car, and so they are building for that. BYD cars aren't particularly "cheap" in the way a "Made in China" spatula is.
consteval 2y ago
In the automotive world, US cars are the ones who have an image of poor quality. GM, Ford, and Tesla are routinely viewed as shoddy and suspiciously built.

echelon 2y ago

> Only reason they wouldn't take off outside China is the astronomical tariffs the West are putting on Chinese cars (100% in the US). They're dumping domestic overproduction on foreign markets. You do that long enough and you can weaken your foreign competitors in their domestic strongholds. This can destroy high-value domestic jobs, lead to atrophy of expertise, and is especially bad to "strategic" sectors of the domestic industrial base. Tariffs are a tool to protect domestic markets against dumping. Every other nation's automotive companies are free to compete in Western markets because they're not actively engaging in dumping. Their competition strengthens domestic rivals because it is fair and on equal footing. Australia doesn't care because it doesn't have a domestic automotive industry to protect, so Chinese overproduction is essentially just foreign subsidized stimulus to the Australian population.

churchill 2y ago
Western cope never gets old. Western automakers had the chance to dominate international markets, but they stayed back at home, making overpriced cars for their captive audience of local buyers. Whenever competitors showed up, they laughed at them, before panicking when those upstarts starting challenging their market dominance. It happened with Japan, Korea, and now China. So, if you feel China competes unfairly, close off your markets. Countries without a local auto industry will accept Chinese EVs readily. BYD & co. will snatch American & EU automakers' foreign markets before they come home to swallow you alive by building factories in low-cost countries like Bulgaria, Mexico, & Brazil. Basically, the Toyota cycle will repeat itself because Western (esp. American) automakers spent hundreds of billions on share buybacks instead of R&D.
- echelon 2y ago
  That is a vast oversimplification that discounts the incredible geopolitical changes over the past 40 years. But at the end of the day, we're protecting our own interests.
  - churchill 2y ago
    I understand - I'm not wishing evil on the West. I want prosperity for all humanity. All I'm saying is that it's shortsightedness and hubris that even got Western automakers (and businesses at large) to this stage. Rest on their laurels, not learning from history, assuming the good times will continue unabated. Just like Jack Welch and General Electric: financialize companies to the max, optimize for quarterly share increases, and earn billion-dollar bonuses. When the company inevitably collapses/shrinks after you retire, it's no longer your business. Whether it's China's foray into nuclear, wind power, carmaking, solar, etc., they simply copy existing Western designs and keep developing them diligently while the incumbents optimize for quarterly earnings.

izend 2y ago

Including Canada (100%) affects the Tesla built in Shanghai that were being imported into Canada.

vitorgrs 2y ago

BYD is also building a factory in Brazil. It's almost ready (the deadline was later this year). The factory stays on the same place of an old Ford factory. Ford left... Fun fact: The street is called Avenue Henry Ford.

bhouston 2y ago

> ...they may be able to just build a plant in Mexico and take advantage of NAFTA. If Trump is elected, expect then NAFTA to be changed to exclude competitors to Tesla in some fashion. There is already a lot of expectations that a Trump win will heavily benefit Elon: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/29/business/economy/elon-musk-trump-tesla.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/29/business/economy/elon-mus...

FileSorter 2y ago
God forbid a US automaker benefit for providing Americans jobs
- _mlbt 2y ago
  Exactly. People are all for globalization until it comes for their specific industry and job. I remember there being a great uproar and gnashing of teeth over the outsourcing of IT jobs to Asia back in the 90s and 00s, yet now there’s something wrong with protecting one of America’s remaining big manufacturing industries.
bluGill 2y ago
NAFTA doesn't exist anymore. Trump replaced it with a "I can't believe it isn't NAFTA", I doubt he will reopen that again.

_mlbt 2y ago

For me it’s not so much about the tariffs. Personally, I have concerns about driving a network connected car that is ultimately controlled by one of my country’s main geopolitical adversaries. There is a nonzero chance that if war breaks out between them, best case they spy on me or brick some functionality, and worst case they weaponize a software update to do something malicious. EDIT: Just to clarify, I would love to be wrong about these concerns, as there will be some who do purchase Chinese EVs. Also it is not about xenophobia, it is about geopolitics and cybersecurity. If someone can reply showing me how my concerns about the CCPs ability to weaponize these cars are unfounded, I would greatly appreciate it.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
nujabe 2y ago
Isn't that a good thing? Personally, I would much rather be spied on by the CCP than the NSA.
- _mlbt 2y ago
  > Isn't that a good thing? Personally, I would much rather be spied on by the CCP than the NSA. Care to elaborate how being spied upon or worse by the CCP could be a good thing? Additionally, depending upon how any hypothetical CCP back doors get implemented, you might get the NSA and others spying on you as well.
  - nujabe 2y ago
    The objectives of the CCP are primarily geopolitical, they are not interested in handing over information to domestic law enforcement that relates to my personal life. Further they have limited jurisdictional reach, unlike the NSA.
- solumunus 2y ago
  What a foolish remark.

tivert 2y ago

> Only reason they wouldn't take off outside China is the astronomical tariffs the West are putting on Chinese cars (100% in the US). Yeah, due to Chinese state subsidies and other assistance, China has a competitive advantage in automobile manufacturing as well as in many other areas. The US needs to show its commitment to free market principles and lets its auto industry die already.

freeone3000 2y ago
It would probably be better for the consumer.
- IncreasePosts 2y ago
  Better for the consumer in the brief period before they are ripped off repeatedly due to lack of competition after the subsidies are not passed to the consumer.
jajko 2y ago
The ideal 'free market' you are referring to doesn't exist in real world. Every single country out there champions their own companies, giving them as much unfair advantage as they can while punishing any competition as much as possible, for mostly good and rational reasons. US is no different. The rest is history, and thats written by victors. Even say EU vs US is not so rosy in trade wars. Remember how German government played down VW's dieselgate? Every single state has something similar, even if not on same scale.
thefaux 2y ago
That seems crazy to me unless we're prepared to rebuild our infrastructure to allow a majority of the populace to live car free. Otherwise completely eliminating our auto industry would be an enormous national security risk.
- tivert 2y ago
  > Otherwise completely eliminating our auto industry would be an enormous national security risk. But I have been told zealous adherence to free market dogma will guarantee national security, without explicitly considering it! [Also, I'm being sarcastic. I thought people would pick up on the double-standard in my original comment, but I guess free marketers can be that kooky sometimes. Everyone should realize by now China is playing a different game vis-a-vis trade than the free marketers want to play.]

tim333 2y ago

BYD have said they don't want to push export to countries where they are not wanted politically. They seem quite engineering focused which seems to be serving them well.