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Only 7.9 percent of all of their sales is outside of China. They can generate fancy numbers galore on domestic soil where they have both production subsidies as

Only 7.9 percent of all of their sales is outside of China. They can generate fancy numbers galore on domestic soil where they have both production subsidies as well as government aid for buying said vehicles, but it's very unclear how they're going to fare outside of China.

jaggs 2y ago
Wow, really good that Tesla has received no government subsidies then. :) https://www.ft.com/content/8179bd8a-4d96-43a9-a8f9-074f9a275bd8 https://www.ft.com/content/8179bd8a-4d96-43a9-a8f9-074f9a275...
- mtmail 2y ago
  Is Tesla mentioned in the FT.com article? I can't access it. On https://apnews.com/article/microchip-electric-vehicles-battery-semiconductor-states-subsidies-3ac5f11cdbf020e996f6bc8f92bd2bfd https://apnews.com/article/microchip-electric-vehicles-batte... Tesla is only mentioned by one state loosing a project. "Many of the companies drawing the biggest subsidy offers — such as Intel, Hyundai, Panasonic, Micron, Toyota, Ford and General Motors — are profitable and operate around the globe. Some lesser-known names in the nascent EV field are getting big offers too, such as Rivian, Volkswagen-backed Scout Motors and Vietnamese automaker VinFast."
  - jaggs 2y ago
    Over $2bn in state and federal subsidies - https://archive.is/g5Gnb https://archive.is/g5Gnb https://imgur.com/a/XYSSnTQ https://imgur.com/a/XYSSnTQ
    - kelnos 2y ago
      Do we have any insight into how much the Chinese government supports BYD? $2B seems like a pretty small number, to be honest. I would expect the number to be at least an order of magnitude (or two!) higher for BYD. At any rate, $2B is a drop in Tesla's bucket; their quarterly revenue is around $25B now. That $2B may have been given at a critical time in Tesla's development and growth, but today it would be 2% of their yearly revenue.
      - hangonhn 2y ago
        From: https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Datawatch/China-s-hidden-subsidies-fuel-export-onslaught https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Datawatch/China-s-hidden-s... "BYD received a total of 37.1 billion yuan in tax rebates over the five-year period, nearly four times the 9.3 billion yuan it received in subsidies. Additionally, BYD has secured long-term bank loans at interest rates between 2.05% and 2.98%, lower than the one-year prime lending rate of 3.35%, according to the company filings. " So it sounds like it received 9.3 billion yuan or 1.3 billion USD but it also receives 4x as much in tax rebates.
        hmm37 2y ago
        Which countries weren't offering tax rebates?
        fspeech 2y ago
        Tesla gets the same rebate in China.
- CharlieDigital 2y ago
  I was going to say that it's a bit disingenuous to point at China's subsidies for EVs and EV manufacturers and not look in the mirror. US government has handed out tons of low/no interest loans, tax incentives, and tax credits to spur development and deployment of EVs and related technologies like charger infrastructure. Just this year, there was a $4500 tax credit towards leasing a number of vehicles. I leased a Prius Prime (one of the vehicles eligible) and basically got $4500 off the sticker. Bought out the lease and purchased the car for $4500 off.
GoToRO 2y ago
Given the prices, 50% off, the only way they will not fare well is import taxes.
toomuchtodo 2y ago
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2024-10-16/electric-car-brand-byd-leads-race-to-make-cheap-evs-despite-tariffs https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2024-10-16/electric-... | https://archive.today/uJLa4 https://archive.today/uJLa4 ("Bloomberg: BYD Is Winning the Global Race to Make Cheaper EVs") > Last fall in Malta, BYD began selling the Atto 3, an all-electric compact crossover. Strip away the company’s futuristic logo, and it looks almost indistinguishable from other small, sporty SUVs. But inside it’s full of treats, including heated seats in vegan leather and a 360-degree rotating touchscreen. The 60-kilowatt-hour battery gives it a range of 260 miles, enough to circle Malta’s main island twice. And by European standards, it’s inexpensive, at about $28,000. It’s a novelty in Malta. But the real reason BYD is entering the European Union’s tiniest member state? The company’s happy place is emerging markets and countries with no domestic auto industry to defend: “You can basically describe them as a ‘chicken rib market,’ ” says Yu Zhang, the managing director of consulting firm AutoForesight in Shanghai. “All the chicken ribs added up together, it’s more than 10 million cars.” > After increasing its annual sales in China 15 times over, to 3 million cars in only three years, BYD is now exporting to roughly 95 markets, including 20 new ones this year. The company is building, has recently opened or has announced plans for assembly plants outside China in 10 countries on three continents. The speed and scope of this expansion have caught the global auto industry off guard and triggered protectionist tariffs in the US and EU, where policymakers fear Chinese players such as BYD will, in the words of Elon Musk, “demolish” their domestic automakers.
- worik 2y ago
  https://www.bydauto.co.nz/vehicles/atto-3 https://www.bydauto.co.nz/vehicles/atto-3 US$31,087.42 for the same car in New Zealand Frustrating
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
ApolloFortyNine 2y ago
Only reason they wouldn't take off outside China is the astronomical tariffs the West are putting on Chinese cars (100% in the US). Though depending on the wording, they may be able to just build a plant in Mexico and take advantage of NAFTA. I can't tell from the whitehouse post on the tariff if it's tied to country of the manufacturer or just country of origin (usually it's origin).
- worik 2y ago
  > Only reason they wouldn't take off outside China is the astronomical tariffs the West are putting on Chinese cars Doing very well in New Zealand and Australia The dealers doing even better with 200% markups....
- polartx 2y ago
  Or if the build quality of their vehicles was not up to par with US regulation or the quality standards the US market is accustomed to..which seems very possible given the connotations generally shared domestically around the phrase “made in china”
  - porphyra 2y ago
    The build quality of Chinese electric cars is generally pretty good. In the past "made in Germany" used to have derogatory connotations due to German goods being worse than British ones too. As for regulations, the BYD cars consistently rank very highly on the stringent Euro NCAP tests: https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/byd/seal-u/50187 https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/byd/seal-u/50187
  - amrocha 2y ago
    Teslas have a reputation for shoddy quality but they’re still sold in the US, i’m sure BYD will be fine
    - bryanlarsen 2y ago
      Chinese made Tesla's are generally acknowledged to be higher quality than American Tesla's.
fairity 2y ago
How significant are the production subsidies? Are they a meaningful percentage of sales revenue?
- hangonhn 2y ago
  They're now mostly in the form of tax rebates and cheap loans these days. According to the Nikkei (https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Datawatch/China-s-hidden-subsidies-fuel-export-onslaught https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Datawatch/China-s-hidden-s...) : "BYD received a total of 37.1 billion yuan in tax rebates over the five-year period, nearly four times the 9.3 billion yuan it received in subsidies. Additionally, BYD has secured long-term bank loans at interest rates between 2.05% and 2.98%, lower than the one-year prime lending rate of 3.35%, according to the company filings. " The overt subsidies mostly existed in the early part of the development process. It's a playbook that's quite commonly used in East Asian economies. Basically it goes like this: 1. Erected barriers to foreign competition and hand out subsidies to simulate local competition 2. Withdraw subsidies to push industries towards mergers and leave only a few big companies in the industry 3. Remove barriers to foreign competitions (i.e. invite Tesla) to foster innovations 4. Export This makes it devilishly hard to quantify the amount of subsidies received and it's intentional. China isn't the first to do this but rather borrowed the playbook from Taiwan, Korea, and Japan, who borrowed it from Germany, who, ironically, was inspired by the idea of industrial policy from Alexander Hamilton (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/audio/2024-03-14/odd-lots-industrial-policy-and-alexander-hamilton-podcast https://www.bloomberg.com/news/audio/2024-03-14/odd-lots-ind...)
  - fairity 2y ago
    Thanks for the information! So, if the subsidies are in the form of tax rebates and subsidized loans, is it safe to say, the full economic benefit of these subsidies as a percentage of vehicle sales revenue is single digits? If so, it seems like there's little reason to doubt that BYD would be immensely successful in the US without tarrifs.
    - maxglute 2y ago
technion 2y ago
Byd is on every corner in my area of Australia. Much more so than Tesla.
_ache_ 2y ago
The percentage of their sales outside China simply means that China is big and they probably dominate sales in China. We already know that. China is so big that probably around 30% of Tesla's sales are actually in China. What's interesting is how they compete with other brands, and I think the trend is for BYD to increase their market share in all countries. However, I would have liked to have more figures.
teruakohatu 2y ago
They are selling a lot of them in New Zealand. It’s a small country so wouldn’t move the needle in terms of global sales, but I see them everywhere. We have no domestic car manufacturing and no tariffs.
cbhl 2y ago
BYD is already one of the top manufacturers for EV Buses globally. IIRC most (all?) of the electric GBuses in the Bay Area were by BYD, although they don't quite have the range to do the longer routes.
asdajksah2123 2y ago
Selling a ton of cars in China, where the competition is fierce, is no mean feat.

jaggs 2y ago

Wow, really good that Tesla has received no government subsidies then. :) https://www.ft.com/content/8179bd8a-4d96-43a9-a8f9-074f9a275bd8 https://www.ft.com/content/8179bd8a-4d96-43a9-a8f9-074f9a275...

mtmail 2y ago
Is Tesla mentioned in the FT.com article? I can't access it. On https://apnews.com/article/microchip-electric-vehicles-battery-semiconductor-states-subsidies-3ac5f11cdbf020e996f6bc8f92bd2bfd https://apnews.com/article/microchip-electric-vehicles-batte... Tesla is only mentioned by one state loosing a project. "Many of the companies drawing the biggest subsidy offers — such as Intel, Hyundai, Panasonic, Micron, Toyota, Ford and General Motors — are profitable and operate around the globe. Some lesser-known names in the nascent EV field are getting big offers too, such as Rivian, Volkswagen-backed Scout Motors and Vietnamese automaker VinFast."
- jaggs 2y ago
  Over $2bn in state and federal subsidies - https://archive.is/g5Gnb https://archive.is/g5Gnb https://imgur.com/a/XYSSnTQ https://imgur.com/a/XYSSnTQ
  - kelnos 2y ago
    Do we have any insight into how much the Chinese government supports BYD? $2B seems like a pretty small number, to be honest. I would expect the number to be at least an order of magnitude (or two!) higher for BYD. At any rate, $2B is a drop in Tesla's bucket; their quarterly revenue is around $25B now. That $2B may have been given at a critical time in Tesla's development and growth, but today it would be 2% of their yearly revenue.
    - hangonhn 2y ago
      From: https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Datawatch/China-s-hidden-subsidies-fuel-export-onslaught https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Datawatch/China-s-hidden-s... "BYD received a total of 37.1 billion yuan in tax rebates over the five-year period, nearly four times the 9.3 billion yuan it received in subsidies. Additionally, BYD has secured long-term bank loans at interest rates between 2.05% and 2.98%, lower than the one-year prime lending rate of 3.35%, according to the company filings. " So it sounds like it received 9.3 billion yuan or 1.3 billion USD but it also receives 4x as much in tax rebates.
      - hmm37 2y ago
        Which countries weren't offering tax rebates?
      - fspeech 2y ago
        Tesla gets the same rebate in China.
CharlieDigital 2y ago
I was going to say that it's a bit disingenuous to point at China's subsidies for EVs and EV manufacturers and not look in the mirror. US government has handed out tons of low/no interest loans, tax incentives, and tax credits to spur development and deployment of EVs and related technologies like charger infrastructure. Just this year, there was a $4500 tax credit towards leasing a number of vehicles. I leased a Prius Prime (one of the vehicles eligible) and basically got $4500 off the sticker. Bought out the lease and purchased the car for $4500 off.

GoToRO 2y ago

Given the prices, 50% off, the only way they will not fare well is import taxes.

toomuchtodo 2y ago

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2024-10-16/electric-car-brand-byd-leads-race-to-make-cheap-evs-despite-tariffs https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2024-10-16/electric-... | https://archive.today/uJLa4 https://archive.today/uJLa4 ("Bloomberg: BYD Is Winning the Global Race to Make Cheaper EVs") > Last fall in Malta, BYD began selling the Atto 3, an all-electric compact crossover. Strip away the company’s futuristic logo, and it looks almost indistinguishable from other small, sporty SUVs. But inside it’s full of treats, including heated seats in vegan leather and a 360-degree rotating touchscreen. The 60-kilowatt-hour battery gives it a range of 260 miles, enough to circle Malta’s main island twice. And by European standards, it’s inexpensive, at about $28,000. It’s a novelty in Malta. But the real reason BYD is entering the European Union’s tiniest member state? The company’s happy place is emerging markets and countries with no domestic auto industry to defend: “You can basically describe them as a ‘chicken rib market,’ ” says Yu Zhang, the managing director of consulting firm AutoForesight in Shanghai. “All the chicken ribs added up together, it’s more than 10 million cars.” > After increasing its annual sales in China 15 times over, to 3 million cars in only three years, BYD is now exporting to roughly 95 markets, including 20 new ones this year. The company is building, has recently opened or has announced plans for assembly plants outside China in 10 countries on three continents. The speed and scope of this expansion have caught the global auto industry off guard and triggered protectionist tariffs in the US and EU, where policymakers fear Chinese players such as BYD will, in the words of Elon Musk, “demolish” their domestic automakers.

worik 2y ago
https://www.bydauto.co.nz/vehicles/atto-3 https://www.bydauto.co.nz/vehicles/atto-3 US$31,087.42 for the same car in New Zealand Frustrating
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

ApolloFortyNine 2y ago

Only reason they wouldn't take off outside China is the astronomical tariffs the West are putting on Chinese cars (100% in the US). Though depending on the wording, they may be able to just build a plant in Mexico and take advantage of NAFTA. I can't tell from the whitehouse post on the tariff if it's tied to country of the manufacturer or just country of origin (usually it's origin).

worik 2y ago
> Only reason they wouldn't take off outside China is the astronomical tariffs the West are putting on Chinese cars Doing very well in New Zealand and Australia The dealers doing even better with 200% markups....
polartx 2y ago
Or if the build quality of their vehicles was not up to par with US regulation or the quality standards the US market is accustomed to..which seems very possible given the connotations generally shared domestically around the phrase “made in china”
- porphyra 2y ago
  The build quality of Chinese electric cars is generally pretty good. In the past "made in Germany" used to have derogatory connotations due to German goods being worse than British ones too. As for regulations, the BYD cars consistently rank very highly on the stringent Euro NCAP tests: https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/byd/seal-u/50187 https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/byd/seal-u/50187
- amrocha 2y ago
  Teslas have a reputation for shoddy quality but they’re still sold in the US, i’m sure BYD will be fine
  - bryanlarsen 2y ago
    Chinese made Tesla's are generally acknowledged to be higher quality than American Tesla's.

fairity 2y ago

How significant are the production subsidies? Are they a meaningful percentage of sales revenue?

hangonhn 2y ago
They're now mostly in the form of tax rebates and cheap loans these days. According to the Nikkei (https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Datawatch/China-s-hidden-subsidies-fuel-export-onslaught https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Datawatch/China-s-hidden-s...) : "BYD received a total of 37.1 billion yuan in tax rebates over the five-year period, nearly four times the 9.3 billion yuan it received in subsidies. Additionally, BYD has secured long-term bank loans at interest rates between 2.05% and 2.98%, lower than the one-year prime lending rate of 3.35%, according to the company filings. " The overt subsidies mostly existed in the early part of the development process. It's a playbook that's quite commonly used in East Asian economies. Basically it goes like this: 1. Erected barriers to foreign competition and hand out subsidies to simulate local competition 2. Withdraw subsidies to push industries towards mergers and leave only a few big companies in the industry 3. Remove barriers to foreign competitions (i.e. invite Tesla) to foster innovations 4. Export This makes it devilishly hard to quantify the amount of subsidies received and it's intentional. China isn't the first to do this but rather borrowed the playbook from Taiwan, Korea, and Japan, who borrowed it from Germany, who, ironically, was inspired by the idea of industrial policy from Alexander Hamilton (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/audio/2024-03-14/odd-lots-industrial-policy-and-alexander-hamilton-podcast https://www.bloomberg.com/news/audio/2024-03-14/odd-lots-ind...)
- fairity 2y ago
  Thanks for the information! So, if the subsidies are in the form of tax rebates and subsidized loans, is it safe to say, the full economic benefit of these subsidies as a percentage of vehicle sales revenue is single digits? If so, it seems like there's little reason to doubt that BYD would be immensely successful in the US without tarrifs.
  - maxglute 2y ago

technion 2y ago

Byd is on every corner in my area of Australia. Much more so than Tesla.

_ache_ 2y ago

The percentage of their sales outside China simply means that China is big and they probably dominate sales in China. We already know that. China is so big that probably around 30% of Tesla's sales are actually in China. What's interesting is how they compete with other brands, and I think the trend is for BYD to increase their market share in all countries. However, I would have liked to have more figures.

teruakohatu 2y ago

They are selling a lot of them in New Zealand. It’s a small country so wouldn’t move the needle in terms of global sales, but I see them everywhere. We have no domestic car manufacturing and no tariffs.

cbhl 2y ago

BYD is already one of the top manufacturers for EV Buses globally. IIRC most (all?) of the electric GBuses in the Bay Area were by BYD, although they don't quite have the range to do the longer routes.

asdajksah2123 2y ago

Selling a ton of cars in China, where the competition is fierce, is no mean feat.