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In general we need to get smart and get good at bringing critical resources (energy, food/water production) reasonably local. Climate, political, and economic

In general we need to get smart and get good at bringing critical resources (energy, food/water production) reasonably local. Climate, political, and economic disasters seem more frequent each decade, and it would be a shame to starve or melt/freeze ourselves just because our delivery systems failed us. And as a Texan, it blows my mind that so many people reject local solar options. When the grid is having rolling blackouts, wouldn’t it be nice to still have power?

ddulaney 2y ago
Agreed in general, but the question is what we give up in going to a more-resilient system. In particular, lots of things are the way they are because of cost. Would you be OK with your food costs doubling or tripling because it’s local? I don’t think I would.
- itishappy 2y ago
  That's a fair point, but let's frame that in a resiliency context, where the choice becomes: * Cheap food most of the time, no food occasionally * More expensive food most of the time, imported food occasionally That decision is not one I'm particularly equipped to comment on.
- anticorporate 2y ago
  > Would you be OK with your food costs doubling or tripling because it’s local? Just pointing out that many people, including myself, intentionally buy groceries from farmers' markets and local food co-ops very specifically because we want our food to be local. Others will spend even more time and labor on vegetable gardens for the same reason. It is unfortunate that the way we offer food production subsidies in many countries primarily benefit large, multinational conglomerates instead of funding healthier, more resilient, and more environmentally friendly local options. It is terrible that only those with means can afford to purchase local foods in many markets, but yes, plenty of us who are able to do so choose to.
  - idunnoman1222 2y ago
    That’s nice, but if we all did that, the price would be 100 times
    - anticorporate 2y ago
      That's nice, but that's not how economics or farming work. There are a lot of factors limiting local farms' ability to deliver at a cheaper price point, like corporate consolidation, land being converted into suburban sprawl, a lack of local value add and processing infrastructure, huge subsidies (and water resources) being wasted on commodity growers, an aging farmer population, etc. Do you really think that if a head of cabbage was fetching $150 a pop at my grocery store that Earl who owns the farm across the street from me is going to stubbornly continue to grow commodity tobacco at a profit of $2000 an ACRE? (About 35 cents a plant.)
      - idunnoman1222 2y ago
        Right the way economics works is I’m going to get my cabbage from a totally different part of the world depending on what time of year I buy it. And yes, when it’s in season, it’s nice to go to the local market. If cabbage was $150 a pop your neighbors biggest concerned would probably be the dead bodies in the streets
- Spooky23 2y ago
  The questions actually are, what happens when we deplete the Ogallala aquifer? What happens when climate change, conflict or natural disaster impacts the Colorado watershed, the Central Valley, and/or the go to market infrastructure for that produce? We’ve created a system where investments and massive subsidy made to turn the desert into a garden destroyed agriculture nationally. It’s a predictable black swan scenario that has impactful and broad implications.
- floatrock 2y ago
  Are we talking about risk-adjusted cost doubling? Most humans think in "next paycheck" terms not "risk-adjusted" terms, but at the same time, the Covid supply chain issues whacked people in the head with "this is a black swan" and "fragility" sticks.
Spooky23 2y ago
People tend to align their thoughts with what pays the mortgage. Texas has a dominant ruling structure dominated by religious fanatics and resource extraction for now. Alot of the extremist nonsense is driven by the sense that demographics will drive power shifts, so cashing in is key. At some point, the “freedom” argument will flip — what is more in alignment with the cowboy myth than self-reliance where your rooftop or land provides?
dfxm12 2y ago
Define "reasonably local" though, because Texas running on its own grid has been bad for almost all Texans (I'm sure a select few are benefiting greatly from it). Most places have reasonably locally resourced schools, but then again, the schools that cover people in the lower socio-economic classes just happen to be worse off. This tends to be the case for many locally distributed resources. Now, going even more local, at an individual house level, I wouldn't want to rely on a local handyman to fix my solar issues or have to do it myself. Home ownership is complex & expensive enough, and when there's an issue, a handyman is sometimes tough to get. It's perfectly reasonable to think local in terms of redundancy, but the primary way of delivering power should be concern of as many people as possible. It's like having an insurance plan with a lot of members. Distributing the costs and risks across as many people as possible helps keep things cheaper and mitigates risk. No one is going to care if only your power is out, but when there are a lot more stakeholders, when the grid extends across city, county, state, even country lines, if there are issues, there's more pressure to get them fixed.
- bmicraft 2y ago
  Texas running it's own grid isn't that bad because Texas is too small, it's mostly just bad because it's criminally underfunded and underregulated.
  - dfxm12 2y ago
    Texas can get away with this because only Texas has control. I addressed this. If they were hooked up through other states, there would be more external pressure to address these issues.

ddulaney 2y ago

Agreed in general, but the question is what we give up in going to a more-resilient system. In particular, lots of things are the way they are because of cost. Would you be OK with your food costs doubling or tripling because it’s local? I don’t think I would.

itishappy 2y ago
That's a fair point, but let's frame that in a resiliency context, where the choice becomes: * Cheap food most of the time, no food occasionally * More expensive food most of the time, imported food occasionally That decision is not one I'm particularly equipped to comment on.
anticorporate 2y ago
> Would you be OK with your food costs doubling or tripling because it’s local? Just pointing out that many people, including myself, intentionally buy groceries from farmers' markets and local food co-ops very specifically because we want our food to be local. Others will spend even more time and labor on vegetable gardens for the same reason. It is unfortunate that the way we offer food production subsidies in many countries primarily benefit large, multinational conglomerates instead of funding healthier, more resilient, and more environmentally friendly local options. It is terrible that only those with means can afford to purchase local foods in many markets, but yes, plenty of us who are able to do so choose to.
- idunnoman1222 2y ago
  That’s nice, but if we all did that, the price would be 100 times
  - anticorporate 2y ago
    That's nice, but that's not how economics or farming work. There are a lot of factors limiting local farms' ability to deliver at a cheaper price point, like corporate consolidation, land being converted into suburban sprawl, a lack of local value add and processing infrastructure, huge subsidies (and water resources) being wasted on commodity growers, an aging farmer population, etc. Do you really think that if a head of cabbage was fetching $150 a pop at my grocery store that Earl who owns the farm across the street from me is going to stubbornly continue to grow commodity tobacco at a profit of $2000 an ACRE? (About 35 cents a plant.)
    - idunnoman1222 2y ago
      Right the way economics works is I’m going to get my cabbage from a totally different part of the world depending on what time of year I buy it. And yes, when it’s in season, it’s nice to go to the local market. If cabbage was $150 a pop your neighbors biggest concerned would probably be the dead bodies in the streets
Spooky23 2y ago
The questions actually are, what happens when we deplete the Ogallala aquifer? What happens when climate change, conflict or natural disaster impacts the Colorado watershed, the Central Valley, and/or the go to market infrastructure for that produce? We’ve created a system where investments and massive subsidy made to turn the desert into a garden destroyed agriculture nationally. It’s a predictable black swan scenario that has impactful and broad implications.
floatrock 2y ago
Are we talking about risk-adjusted cost doubling? Most humans think in "next paycheck" terms not "risk-adjusted" terms, but at the same time, the Covid supply chain issues whacked people in the head with "this is a black swan" and "fragility" sticks.

Spooky23 2y ago

People tend to align their thoughts with what pays the mortgage. Texas has a dominant ruling structure dominated by religious fanatics and resource extraction for now. Alot of the extremist nonsense is driven by the sense that demographics will drive power shifts, so cashing in is key. At some point, the “freedom” argument will flip — what is more in alignment with the cowboy myth than self-reliance where your rooftop or land provides?

dfxm12 2y ago

Define "reasonably local" though, because Texas running on its own grid has been bad for almost all Texans (I'm sure a select few are benefiting greatly from it). Most places have reasonably locally resourced schools, but then again, the schools that cover people in the lower socio-economic classes just happen to be worse off. This tends to be the case for many locally distributed resources. Now, going even more local, at an individual house level, I wouldn't want to rely on a local handyman to fix my solar issues or have to do it myself. Home ownership is complex & expensive enough, and when there's an issue, a handyman is sometimes tough to get. It's perfectly reasonable to think local in terms of redundancy, but the primary way of delivering power should be concern of as many people as possible. It's like having an insurance plan with a lot of members. Distributing the costs and risks across as many people as possible helps keep things cheaper and mitigates risk. No one is going to care if only your power is out, but when there are a lot more stakeholders, when the grid extends across city, county, state, even country lines, if there are issues, there's more pressure to get them fixed.

bmicraft 2y ago
Texas running it's own grid isn't that bad because Texas is too small, it's mostly just bad because it's criminally underfunded and underregulated.
- dfxm12 2y ago
  Texas can get away with this because only Texas has control. I addressed this. If they were hooked up through other states, there would be more external pressure to address these issues.