4 ms·

We need a progressive carbon tax. They should be covering their emissions plus that of many others. Even they are in favor of this.

al_borland 2y ago
How would this be any different than someone buying carbon offsets, which are mostly a scam. The person buying them gets to feel superior, someone else gets a lot of money for effectively doing nothing, and the the environment suffers just the same.
- tonyedgecombe 2y ago
  Carbon taxes are effective, unlike offsets.
- schnitzelstoat 2y ago
  The money raised could be spent on non-carbon technologies or mitigation strategies. Plus as the cost of emitting carbon rises, people will search for alternatives. I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea, but if we want to go for the transition we need to do so wholeheartedly, not punishing poorer people with tariffs that keep EV's unaffordable because it helps some lobby groups.
  - spwa4 2y ago
    Could be - but isn't. > ... as the cost of emitting carbon rises, people will search for alternatives ... The only alternative for most poorer individuals is the power grid and while it is more convenient it is nowhere close to carbon based fuels in price. So it is used for small things, and for heating carbon based fuels are used. And, perhaps ironically, the grid is becoming on a per-person/per-customer basis more expensive because the people who traditionally pay the bill, large, industrial users, have by far the easiest time and the most to gain switching to solar.
    - therealdrag0 2y ago
      Washington’s carbon tax invests in public transportation.
- ovi256 2y ago
  The environment suffers more, because the very rich consume a tiny fraction of their wealth, investing the vast majority. When someone else poorer gets a slice of that wealth, they'll inevitably consume a much higher fraction of it.
  - adrianN 2y ago
    By investing most of your wealth you loan it to somebody poorer so that they can produce value with it.
    - LightHugger 2y ago
      Investing with someone poor is a good way to lose your investment. Trickle down economics are not real and investment is not a progressive tax.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - adrianN 2y ago
        Almost(?) everybody is poorer than Bezos. Pretty much by definition he invests in people poorer than him. I don't claim that trickle down economics are real; it is my understanding that trickle down economics claims something much much stronger than what I said.
    - snapplebobapple 2y ago
      As can be seen from the other response to this post, there is a significant portion of people incapable of dividing ideology out of truth (people idiot for brevity) here so telling them the truth is often met with foolishness. I appreciate your effort though.
- ajross 2y ago
  Offsets aren't really a scam, though they are essentially unregulated. Certainly if you tried to scale the existing industry rapidly by throwing money at it you'd create scams. But regulation isn't an impossible thing. Another answer is that you just don't include offsets in the tax at all, at least at the start. You tax the extraction or importation of burnable carbon. So gas wells pay $X per ton of carbon they ship, oil refineries pay $Y per ton of carbon they pull off a tanker, etc... Then when someone comes by with a specific technology for capture/sequestration/offset/whatever, you make a regulatory decision that such a process is legal and pay them back $Z per ton of carbon verifiably sequestered.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  Taxes, in some circumstances, can be used to inhibit certain economic activity. Ideally, the revenue from carbon taxes is used to fund climate change mitigation efforts (subsidies for clean energy, mobility, HVAC, etc). https://climeworks.com/ https://climeworks.com/ and other direct carbon air capture companies are an option. You are then paying what it costs to sequester a ton of CO2 underground in stable form.
b3lvedere 2y ago
I'd rather see they are forced to plant and keep alive around 3 million new trees each year, which would at least compensate about 6000 tons of carbon. Source: https://8billiontrees.com/carbon-offsets-credits/carbon-ecological-footprint-calculators/how-much-carbon-does-a-tree-capture/ https://8billiontrees.com/carbon-offsets-credits/carbon-ecol...

al_borland 2y ago

How would this be any different than someone buying carbon offsets, which are mostly a scam. The person buying them gets to feel superior, someone else gets a lot of money for effectively doing nothing, and the the environment suffers just the same.

tonyedgecombe 2y ago
Carbon taxes are effective, unlike offsets.
schnitzelstoat 2y ago
The money raised could be spent on non-carbon technologies or mitigation strategies. Plus as the cost of emitting carbon rises, people will search for alternatives. I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea, but if we want to go for the transition we need to do so wholeheartedly, not punishing poorer people with tariffs that keep EV's unaffordable because it helps some lobby groups.
- spwa4 2y ago
  Could be - but isn't. > ... as the cost of emitting carbon rises, people will search for alternatives ... The only alternative for most poorer individuals is the power grid and while it is more convenient it is nowhere close to carbon based fuels in price. So it is used for small things, and for heating carbon based fuels are used. And, perhaps ironically, the grid is becoming on a per-person/per-customer basis more expensive because the people who traditionally pay the bill, large, industrial users, have by far the easiest time and the most to gain switching to solar.
  - therealdrag0 2y ago
    Washington’s carbon tax invests in public transportation.
ovi256 2y ago
The environment suffers more, because the very rich consume a tiny fraction of their wealth, investing the vast majority. When someone else poorer gets a slice of that wealth, they'll inevitably consume a much higher fraction of it.
- adrianN 2y ago
  By investing most of your wealth you loan it to somebody poorer so that they can produce value with it.
  - LightHugger 2y ago
    Investing with someone poor is a good way to lose your investment. Trickle down economics are not real and investment is not a progressive tax.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - adrianN 2y ago
      Almost(?) everybody is poorer than Bezos. Pretty much by definition he invests in people poorer than him. I don't claim that trickle down economics are real; it is my understanding that trickle down economics claims something much much stronger than what I said.
  - snapplebobapple 2y ago
    As can be seen from the other response to this post, there is a significant portion of people incapable of dividing ideology out of truth (people idiot for brevity) here so telling them the truth is often met with foolishness. I appreciate your effort though.
ajross 2y ago
Offsets aren't really a scam, though they are essentially unregulated. Certainly if you tried to scale the existing industry rapidly by throwing money at it you'd create scams. But regulation isn't an impossible thing. Another answer is that you just don't include offsets in the tax at all, at least at the start. You tax the extraction or importation of burnable carbon. So gas wells pay $X per ton of carbon they ship, oil refineries pay $Y per ton of carbon they pull off a tanker, etc... Then when someone comes by with a specific technology for capture/sequestration/offset/whatever, you make a regulatory decision that such a process is legal and pay them back $Z per ton of carbon verifiably sequestered.
toomuchtodo 2y ago
Taxes, in some circumstances, can be used to inhibit certain economic activity. Ideally, the revenue from carbon taxes is used to fund climate change mitigation efforts (subsidies for clean energy, mobility, HVAC, etc). https://climeworks.com/ https://climeworks.com/ and other direct carbon air capture companies are an option. You are then paying what it costs to sequester a ton of CO2 underground in stable form.

b3lvedere 2y ago

I'd rather see they are forced to plant and keep alive around 3 million new trees each year, which would at least compensate about 6000 tons of carbon. Source: https://8billiontrees.com/carbon-offsets-credits/carbon-ecological-footprint-calculators/how-much-carbon-does-a-tree-capture/ https://8billiontrees.com/carbon-offsets-credits/carbon-ecol...