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The "Asia/Jerusalem" weirdness is because Daylight Savings Time is a big church-and-state issue. Religious people want the workday to be convenient for holidays

The "Asia/Jerusalem" weirdness is because Daylight Savings Time is a big church-and-state issue. Religious people want the workday to be convenient for holidays that start at sunset. This led to decades (up to the mid-'00s) where Daylight Savings was the result of annual negotiations between religious and secular parties. It often caused problems when the decision wasn't made until juuuust before the transition date. There are still exceptions built in to prevent Daylight Savings from ending on Rosh HaShanah, so that's probably the future stuff.

rob74 2y ago
Reading this, and considering the limited advantages of DST (especially for a country that is relatively far to the south), I wonder why they didn't decide to scrap DST completely? Maybe they will if the EU eventually manages to do it?
- lazide 2y ago
  If they didn’t have that to argue about, what else would they do with their spare time?
- maratc 2y ago
  I would argue that DST actually makes most sense in 30-40 degrees of latitude. With about 13 hours of sunlight in the summer, split evenly around the mid-day, it comes down to 05h30 to 18h30 under light. There are many more people who would be out there to enjoy the sunlight between 18h30 and 19h30 than there are between 05h30 and 06h30.
  - bena 2y ago
    I really dislike this argument of "I'd rather enjoy the sun in the evening than in the morning" ignoring all of the other problems it causes. Sunlight in the morning is useful. It's better for your sleep rhythms. It's safer for school children, etc. And to be completely fair, I don't see that many more people "enjoying the sunlight" during the weekend when they have the entire day to do so. Like, what is the sun going down at 6 really preventing you from doing that you couldn't do otherwise?
    - maratc 2y ago
      > I really dislike this argument of "I'd rather enjoy the sun in the evening than in the morning" My argument is not "I'd rather enjoy the sun in the evening than in the morning", my argument is "From what I can observe, most people would prefer an hour of sunlight at the end of the day rather than in its beginning". This is not about what I think, it's about what most people think. > what is the sun going down at 6 really preventing you from doing Again, my observation is that most people, given a choice of A. having sunlight between 5am and 6am; or B. having sunlight between 6pm and 7pm, would prefer option B, simply for the reason that more are awake during that time.
      - bena 2y ago
        Did you take a poll, or do you just have the feeling that that is the case? Not to mention, it's a bit weaselly. It offsets the burden of defending the position to "most people". And it doesn't even matter what "most people" think. "Most people" in this case, would be wrong. Even if it were "most people" and not "most people whose opinions you've happened to remember on the subject because they happen to align with yours". And it's going to get darker earlier in winter. That's just what it does. People are really just lamenting the lack of daylight hours in general. Because during the winter, few places have sunlight during 6pm and 7pm even if we kept DST year round. What they say they want is sunlight between 5pm and 6pm. And after the clocks roll back, it'll start getting dark soon after 5. And once again, I ask, for what? Having the sun rise just after 6am is better for everyone. School kids waiting for the bus are safer, kids walking to school way safer. Better driving when you're waking up. Everything is more in line with your circadian rhythms, etc.
        samatman 2y ago
        > It offsets the burden of defending the position to "most people". Decisions where the only effect is to align something arbitrary with people's preferences can only be made through appeal to the majority. > And it doesn't even matter what "most people" think. Yes. Yes it does.
        maratc 2y ago
- layer8 2y ago
  The EU likely won’t scrap it, because the CET countries want to stay in a common time zone (no new time zone borders) for economic reasons, but either the very Eastern or very Western ones in that range would object to permanent DST or permanent non-DST, because it would move them too far from the solar day either in winter or summer. It can’t be fixed without one country or another getting the short stick, which means it won’t be fixed.
  - yyyfb 2y ago
    If the continental US can do it (and it looks like it might soon, with California voting for it) I'm not sure I buy that argument. Heck if China can survive on one timezone...
    - layer8 2y ago
      They certainly could if they had started that way, but changing it now will disadvantage at least one of the countries (Spain for example), and those countries’ politicians don’t want to risk the ire of their voters for the greater good. And DST is regulated on the EU level, so can’t be changed by individual EU members without breaking EU law, like apparently individual US states can. It’s status quo bias and loss aversion. Similar to how it would be better for the US to change their voting system, but it will never happen because it would disfavor one of the political parties who’d have to approve the change.
      - ascorbic 2y ago
        Spain should take the opportunity to move to WET like Portugal
        layer8 2y ago
        They have more economic relations with the rest of the CET countries combined, so it’s more beneficial to stay in the same time zone.
        2y ago
RegnisGnaw 2y ago
There is no more exceptions, IDT got extended to last Sunday of October in 2013.
- azernik 2y ago
  Huzzah, at last!
- ars 2y ago
  According to Wikipedia: "If the end of IDT falls on Rosh Hashana, then IDT will end on the first Monday after October 1."
  - RegnisGnaw 2y ago
    Reading a little further: On July 8, 2013, the Knesset approved the bill to extend IDT even further. According to the bill, IDT will begin on the Friday before the last Sunday of March, and end on the last Sunday of October.[14]
ars 2y ago
It's because of Passover: The Seder (main celebratory meal) lasts till midnight and later, and it's a very big deal for children. So they don't want Daylight Savings Time to make it end even later than it already does. It's also because of the fast day of Yom Kippur - people wanted the faster to end 1 hour earlier. So they wanted DST to match up to those days - but that made the DST period too short, and led to the negotiations.

rob74 2y ago

Reading this, and considering the limited advantages of DST (especially for a country that is relatively far to the south), I wonder why they didn't decide to scrap DST completely? Maybe they will if the EU eventually manages to do it?

lazide 2y ago
If they didn’t have that to argue about, what else would they do with their spare time?
maratc 2y ago
I would argue that DST actually makes most sense in 30-40 degrees of latitude. With about 13 hours of sunlight in the summer, split evenly around the mid-day, it comes down to 05h30 to 18h30 under light. There are many more people who would be out there to enjoy the sunlight between 18h30 and 19h30 than there are between 05h30 and 06h30.
- bena 2y ago
  I really dislike this argument of "I'd rather enjoy the sun in the evening than in the morning" ignoring all of the other problems it causes. Sunlight in the morning is useful. It's better for your sleep rhythms. It's safer for school children, etc. And to be completely fair, I don't see that many more people "enjoying the sunlight" during the weekend when they have the entire day to do so. Like, what is the sun going down at 6 really preventing you from doing that you couldn't do otherwise?
  - maratc 2y ago
    > I really dislike this argument of "I'd rather enjoy the sun in the evening than in the morning" My argument is not "I'd rather enjoy the sun in the evening than in the morning", my argument is "From what I can observe, most people would prefer an hour of sunlight at the end of the day rather than in its beginning". This is not about what I think, it's about what most people think. > what is the sun going down at 6 really preventing you from doing Again, my observation is that most people, given a choice of A. having sunlight between 5am and 6am; or B. having sunlight between 6pm and 7pm, would prefer option B, simply for the reason that more are awake during that time.
    - bena 2y ago
      Did you take a poll, or do you just have the feeling that that is the case? Not to mention, it's a bit weaselly. It offsets the burden of defending the position to "most people". And it doesn't even matter what "most people" think. "Most people" in this case, would be wrong. Even if it were "most people" and not "most people whose opinions you've happened to remember on the subject because they happen to align with yours". And it's going to get darker earlier in winter. That's just what it does. People are really just lamenting the lack of daylight hours in general. Because during the winter, few places have sunlight during 6pm and 7pm even if we kept DST year round. What they say they want is sunlight between 5pm and 6pm. And after the clocks roll back, it'll start getting dark soon after 5. And once again, I ask, for what? Having the sun rise just after 6am is better for everyone. School kids waiting for the bus are safer, kids walking to school way safer. Better driving when you're waking up. Everything is more in line with your circadian rhythms, etc.
      - samatman 2y ago
        > It offsets the burden of defending the position to "most people". Decisions where the only effect is to align something arbitrary with people's preferences can only be made through appeal to the majority. > And it doesn't even matter what "most people" think. Yes. Yes it does.
      - maratc 2y ago
layer8 2y ago
The EU likely won’t scrap it, because the CET countries want to stay in a common time zone (no new time zone borders) for economic reasons, but either the very Eastern or very Western ones in that range would object to permanent DST or permanent non-DST, because it would move them too far from the solar day either in winter or summer. It can’t be fixed without one country or another getting the short stick, which means it won’t be fixed.
- yyyfb 2y ago
  If the continental US can do it (and it looks like it might soon, with California voting for it) I'm not sure I buy that argument. Heck if China can survive on one timezone...
  - layer8 2y ago
    They certainly could if they had started that way, but changing it now will disadvantage at least one of the countries (Spain for example), and those countries’ politicians don’t want to risk the ire of their voters for the greater good. And DST is regulated on the EU level, so can’t be changed by individual EU members without breaking EU law, like apparently individual US states can. It’s status quo bias and loss aversion. Similar to how it would be better for the US to change their voting system, but it will never happen because it would disfavor one of the political parties who’d have to approve the change.
    - ascorbic 2y ago
      Spain should take the opportunity to move to WET like Portugal
      - layer8 2y ago
        They have more economic relations with the rest of the CET countries combined, so it’s more beneficial to stay in the same time zone.
        2y ago

RegnisGnaw 2y ago

There is no more exceptions, IDT got extended to last Sunday of October in 2013.

azernik 2y ago
Huzzah, at last!
ars 2y ago
According to Wikipedia: "If the end of IDT falls on Rosh Hashana, then IDT will end on the first Monday after October 1."
- RegnisGnaw 2y ago
  Reading a little further: On July 8, 2013, the Knesset approved the bill to extend IDT even further. According to the bill, IDT will begin on the Friday before the last Sunday of March, and end on the last Sunday of October.[14]

ars 2y ago

It's because of Passover: The Seder (main celebratory meal) lasts till midnight and later, and it's a very big deal for children. So they don't want Daylight Savings Time to make it end even later than it already does. It's also because of the fast day of Yom Kippur - people wanted the faster to end 1 hour earlier. So they wanted DST to match up to those days - but that made the DST period too short, and led to the negotiations.