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I can still recall my impressions from reading these books at five years old, and the difference between them and the world I eventually entered does make me sa

I can still recall my impressions from reading these books at five years old, and the difference between them and the world I eventually entered does make me sad. I’ve been struck by how the world is depicted to my children in so many children’s books. “As you grow, you’ll be able to slot into a happy productive life, no matter what kind of work you like.” No joke: every time I read my daughter a Richard Scarry book, I wonder when and how it will have to be broken to her that unless her interests happen to include something that pays a living wage, she’s actually fucked for life. Think about what it would be like to grow up or to raise children in a world where the ramp to adulthood was incredibly wide and smooth and it was near-impossible to fall off a cliff into poverty, loneliness, or a life of work you hate. Busytown isn’t a real place, but it was obviously designed to give children some sense of what the world is like or supposed to be like.

0xcafefood 2y ago
This is an overly dour take on children's books. I don't disagree that young people (at least in the US) are told a lie like "Do what you love and the money will follow." I fell for that and tried to become research scientist, getting a far as receiving a PhD only to find that the funnel from there to a tenured research job was _extremely_ narrow. That's a giant waste of many motivated people's time. And it does need to be fixed. But is the source of all this Richard Scarry books? I really doubt it. It's okay to give a rosy view of the world to children. Childhood is the longest and best vacation you'll ever take. But there does need to be an incrementally higher dose of "real talk" as children grow into young adults.
- velcrovan 2y ago
  Maybe I should have been more clear: I see this as a problem with the real world, not with children’s books. The books are good. What’s busted is that so many adults don’t see such a world as worth building and working towards.
  - verisimi 2y ago
    The story is right, but reality is wrong? Perhaps you have an issue with interpretation here. The pleasant story was the illusion here. PS - I too loved the Richard Scarry books as a child and bought them for my children - and I'm not even from the US.
    - velcrovan 2y ago
      All I’m saying is that we ought to make a conscious effort to build the world that is more aligned with the world we’d like to explain to our kids. I think stories that describe better possibilities than what we have are useful cognitive and social tools.
      - verisimi 2y ago
        Yes, but I'm not sure that the job is to 'change the world' - I don't want to fend off those who think they know what I need. I think it's more about changing oneself to align with what one finds here, whilst trying to remain true to oneself.
        eszed 2y ago
        That's a good way to look at it. However, our actions influence (even if infinitesimal) the direction of the world around us, so the consequences of our choices are worth some thought.
  - pfdietz 2y ago
    Adults correctly see there's nothing they can individually do that would have detectable effect toward such a goal. So, the cost/benefit ratio is a loser.
    - velcrovan 2y ago
      I used to think this way too. My outlook on life transformed when I found out about this amazing concept: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_action https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_action
jonas21 2y ago
Do you think the animals in Busytown are all working their dream jobs and following their passions? Of course not -- as someone else pointed out, the butchers are all pigs! But they mostly seem to have found something that they like well enough and contributes to society. And perhaps that's an important lesson to take away. Part of living a happy, fulfilling life is finding joy in what's attainable.
- velcrovan 2y ago
  > But they mostly seem to have found something that they like well enough and contributes to society. And perhaps that's an important lesson to take away. Part of living a happy, fulfilling life is finding the joy within what is attainable. I fully agree about all of this. The sad fact is that, in my country, a person with this humble and contented perspective is rolling the dice when it comes to housing, health, and autonomy, and many of them lead unnecessarily stressful and lives with no time/energy for community or creative development. That’s the part I would like to see fixed.
- gffrd 2y ago
  > they mostly seem to have found something that they like well enough and contributes to society. Exactly! It shows people being valuable to each other in small ways, having purpose, and being involved in each other's lives. And it emphasizes the joy and texture of everyday life. The little things.
tikhonj 2y ago
I mean, the books definitely show lots of "real" jobs, and ones people wouldn't necessarily be naturally passionate about. What's missing is all the bullshit jobs and awful management. But, even if you wanted to, you probably couldn't really convey that in a children's book... Hell, even most adult books fail to capture just how bullshit the bullshit is!
boplicity 2y ago
Similar thoughts: Almost every children's book that depicts a serious issue, such as racism, tells a complete story where the problem is solved and is no longer a problem. I believe this is a big part of why so many people think that racism (again, for example) isn't a problem anymore. Because, they learned, from a very young age, and for many years, that such problems were solved. There is a very strong and understandable impulse for children's books to be comforting, and to shy away from un-answered questions. This, as you point out, leads to a warped view of reality that parents then should correct.
- naught0 2y ago
  I think it's less children's books and more decades of propaganda from right wing sources decrying things like affirmative action, DEI etc. If some are to be believed, white men are the most discriminated group in the US.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- dfxm12 2y ago
  This kinda happened with adults after they watched the West Wing. It's not just media aimed at children. Lots of prime time TV is like this.
naet 2y ago
I have sort of the opposite feeling reading some children's books to my son, especially ones that I can remember from my own childhood. It's great for me to remember to look at the world in a more childlike way. Even though I have more responsibilities as an adult, like bills to pay, I also have the freedom to be silly, enjoy time with my family, do something creative, etc. Any given day I can decide I want to try something new in the kitchen, make a big mess concocting some crazy recipie, maybe decide it didn't work out and go grab a pizza for dinner instead. Or I can write some stories or poetry, or take a sketchbook to the lake, snap some photos at the train station, or whatever catches my fancy on that day. I think we sometimes forget we have certain freedoms as we settle in to typical patterns and go a little on autopilot, but all it takes is a gentle nudge to rediscover that type of fun. I switched careers later in life after finding that it was difficult to make money in my initially chosen field, but I don't feel "fucked for life" by it. I actually feel a lot better about doing things I like outside of work. It's much more rewarding to be creative if I'm not trying to maximize profits or otherwise commodify what I'm doing. Sure I wish I didn't have to work and could do whatever I wanted all the time, but I work generally acceptable hours at a stomach-able enough job and have time outside work for family and fun and I've made my peace with that.
- velcrovan 2y ago
  All of this very much describes my situation in life too. I would just like for that same level of autonomy and freedom to be the default reality for my kids, and people in general, no matter what work they choose to do, even “uninteresting” work, so that they have this kind of ample leisure and autonomy to pursue their interests outside of their jobs. In my country that is very much not the case, not sure about where you live.
rohfle 2y ago
- born 1919 - upper middle class life in boston - started illustrating 1949 - started writing original works 1955 - moved to switzerland 1972 - died 1994 He wasnt alone in his world view at the time. Think about how much the world has changed since.
havblue 2y ago
We aren't talking about children here exactly, but I think adults tended to do a disservice to teenagers as I was growing up by not citing the mean employment statistics of certain jobs, especially ones related to the arts. We can thank the generation who survived the great depression and the boomers for this eternal optimism. "Oh well, by the time things really go south I'll be long gone anyway, sorry!"
- switchbak 2y ago
  When I was a teenager, my parents weren't particular involved in my educational choices nor my career plans. I was mostly left to my own devices. Despite this, I was very much aware of the tradeoffs in the educational path I was choosing. Perhaps it's because I didn't grow up wealthy, but the financial facet of both my education and eventual career was front and center for myself and my friends. It would have been nice for the adults in my life to have told me these things, but a competent 16-19 year old is also plenty able to ascertain these things themselves.
jandrese 2y ago
I too was disappointed that in the real world it is pretty hard to find a pickle car to drive.
- switchbak 2y ago
  Not to mention how often they get flattened by a steam roller!
dfxm12 2y ago
I wonder when and how it will have to be broken to her that unless her interests happen to include something that pays a living wage, she’s actually fucked for life. You have a hand in shaping the world she will grow up in. If this is important to you, keep it in mind at least next Tuesday.
bityard 2y ago
I'm not sure you are not doing your daughter a lot of good with such a pessimistic outlook on life. You might consider doing some soul searching and try to work out what really matters in life (hint: it isn't money) and then figure out how to adapt. At least externally, if that's what it takes. When my kids were young, my wife and I made a pointed effort to teach our kids to see the wonder in everyday things and situations. Even if they didn't seem all that special to us. That's what most of us have to do. That aside, Busytown is set in a small town. The culture of towns vary of course, but _generally_, small town life is vastly different from urban or suburban life. There is far less social isolation. (Most) people help each other out without needing to be asked. You may disagree with your neighbor's political opinions but can still have a beer with them in the backyard. And so on.
com2kid 2y ago
> No joke: every time I read my daughter a Richard Scarry book, I wonder when and how it will have to be broken to her that unless her interests happen to include something that pays a living wage, she’s actually fucked for life. Fight for housing reform. Fight for every YIMBY proposal that comes up. Demand drastic zoning reforms. 80% of the problem of affordability in the western world is housing. In the US at least, there is plenty of space left in most major cities (outside of NYC) to dramatically expand and make housing affordable again. The unaffordability of the modern world is a self caused problem. People want their house to rise 5% in value every year but are pissed off when restaurant prices go up 10% a year and daycares cost 30k a year. You know what, how about my house stays flat in value for a decade while wages catch up with housing costs, and in return I get to save 15k a year on daycare and eating out costs 5k a year less and property crime goes back down to reasonable levels? Vote for change.

0xcafefood 2y ago

This is an overly dour take on children's books. I don't disagree that young people (at least in the US) are told a lie like "Do what you love and the money will follow." I fell for that and tried to become research scientist, getting a far as receiving a PhD only to find that the funnel from there to a tenured research job was _extremely_ narrow. That's a giant waste of many motivated people's time. And it does need to be fixed. But is the source of all this Richard Scarry books? I really doubt it. It's okay to give a rosy view of the world to children. Childhood is the longest and best vacation you'll ever take. But there does need to be an incrementally higher dose of "real talk" as children grow into young adults.

velcrovan 2y ago
Maybe I should have been more clear: I see this as a problem with the real world, not with children’s books. The books are good. What’s busted is that so many adults don’t see such a world as worth building and working towards.
- verisimi 2y ago
  The story is right, but reality is wrong? Perhaps you have an issue with interpretation here. The pleasant story was the illusion here. PS - I too loved the Richard Scarry books as a child and bought them for my children - and I'm not even from the US.
  - velcrovan 2y ago
    All I’m saying is that we ought to make a conscious effort to build the world that is more aligned with the world we’d like to explain to our kids. I think stories that describe better possibilities than what we have are useful cognitive and social tools.
    - verisimi 2y ago
      Yes, but I'm not sure that the job is to 'change the world' - I don't want to fend off those who think they know what I need. I think it's more about changing oneself to align with what one finds here, whilst trying to remain true to oneself.
      - eszed 2y ago
        That's a good way to look at it. However, our actions influence (even if infinitesimal) the direction of the world around us, so the consequences of our choices are worth some thought.
- pfdietz 2y ago
  Adults correctly see there's nothing they can individually do that would have detectable effect toward such a goal. So, the cost/benefit ratio is a loser.
  - velcrovan 2y ago
    I used to think this way too. My outlook on life transformed when I found out about this amazing concept: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_action https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_action

jonas21 2y ago

Do you think the animals in Busytown are all working their dream jobs and following their passions? Of course not -- as someone else pointed out, the butchers are all pigs! But they mostly seem to have found something that they like well enough and contributes to society. And perhaps that's an important lesson to take away. Part of living a happy, fulfilling life is finding joy in what's attainable.

velcrovan 2y ago
> But they mostly seem to have found something that they like well enough and contributes to society. And perhaps that's an important lesson to take away. Part of living a happy, fulfilling life is finding the joy within what is attainable. I fully agree about all of this. The sad fact is that, in my country, a person with this humble and contented perspective is rolling the dice when it comes to housing, health, and autonomy, and many of them lead unnecessarily stressful and lives with no time/energy for community or creative development. That’s the part I would like to see fixed.
gffrd 2y ago
> they mostly seem to have found something that they like well enough and contributes to society. Exactly! It shows people being valuable to each other in small ways, having purpose, and being involved in each other's lives. And it emphasizes the joy and texture of everyday life. The little things.

tikhonj 2y ago

I mean, the books definitely show lots of "real" jobs, and ones people wouldn't necessarily be naturally passionate about. What's missing is all the bullshit jobs and awful management. But, even if you wanted to, you probably couldn't really convey that in a children's book... Hell, even most adult books fail to capture just how bullshit the bullshit is!

boplicity 2y ago

Similar thoughts: Almost every children's book that depicts a serious issue, such as racism, tells a complete story where the problem is solved and is no longer a problem. I believe this is a big part of why so many people think that racism (again, for example) isn't a problem anymore. Because, they learned, from a very young age, and for many years, that such problems were solved. There is a very strong and understandable impulse for children's books to be comforting, and to shy away from un-answered questions. This, as you point out, leads to a warped view of reality that parents then should correct.

naught0 2y ago
I think it's less children's books and more decades of propaganda from right wing sources decrying things like affirmative action, DEI etc. If some are to be believed, white men are the most discriminated group in the US.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
dfxm12 2y ago
This kinda happened with adults after they watched the West Wing. It's not just media aimed at children. Lots of prime time TV is like this.

naet 2y ago

I have sort of the opposite feeling reading some children's books to my son, especially ones that I can remember from my own childhood. It's great for me to remember to look at the world in a more childlike way. Even though I have more responsibilities as an adult, like bills to pay, I also have the freedom to be silly, enjoy time with my family, do something creative, etc. Any given day I can decide I want to try something new in the kitchen, make a big mess concocting some crazy recipie, maybe decide it didn't work out and go grab a pizza for dinner instead. Or I can write some stories or poetry, or take a sketchbook to the lake, snap some photos at the train station, or whatever catches my fancy on that day. I think we sometimes forget we have certain freedoms as we settle in to typical patterns and go a little on autopilot, but all it takes is a gentle nudge to rediscover that type of fun. I switched careers later in life after finding that it was difficult to make money in my initially chosen field, but I don't feel "fucked for life" by it. I actually feel a lot better about doing things I like outside of work. It's much more rewarding to be creative if I'm not trying to maximize profits or otherwise commodify what I'm doing. Sure I wish I didn't have to work and could do whatever I wanted all the time, but I work generally acceptable hours at a stomach-able enough job and have time outside work for family and fun and I've made my peace with that.

velcrovan 2y ago
All of this very much describes my situation in life too. I would just like for that same level of autonomy and freedom to be the default reality for my kids, and people in general, no matter what work they choose to do, even “uninteresting” work, so that they have this kind of ample leisure and autonomy to pursue their interests outside of their jobs. In my country that is very much not the case, not sure about where you live.

rohfle 2y ago

- born 1919 - upper middle class life in boston - started illustrating 1949 - started writing original works 1955 - moved to switzerland 1972 - died 1994 He wasnt alone in his world view at the time. Think about how much the world has changed since.

havblue 2y ago

We aren't talking about children here exactly, but I think adults tended to do a disservice to teenagers as I was growing up by not citing the mean employment statistics of certain jobs, especially ones related to the arts. We can thank the generation who survived the great depression and the boomers for this eternal optimism. "Oh well, by the time things really go south I'll be long gone anyway, sorry!"

switchbak 2y ago
When I was a teenager, my parents weren't particular involved in my educational choices nor my career plans. I was mostly left to my own devices. Despite this, I was very much aware of the tradeoffs in the educational path I was choosing. Perhaps it's because I didn't grow up wealthy, but the financial facet of both my education and eventual career was front and center for myself and my friends. It would have been nice for the adults in my life to have told me these things, but a competent 16-19 year old is also plenty able to ascertain these things themselves.

jandrese 2y ago

I too was disappointed that in the real world it is pretty hard to find a pickle car to drive.

switchbak 2y ago
Not to mention how often they get flattened by a steam roller!

dfxm12 2y ago

I wonder when and how it will have to be broken to her that unless her interests happen to include something that pays a living wage, she’s actually fucked for life. You have a hand in shaping the world she will grow up in. If this is important to you, keep it in mind at least next Tuesday.

bityard 2y ago

I'm not sure you are not doing your daughter a lot of good with such a pessimistic outlook on life. You might consider doing some soul searching and try to work out what really matters in life (hint: it isn't money) and then figure out how to adapt. At least externally, if that's what it takes. When my kids were young, my wife and I made a pointed effort to teach our kids to see the wonder in everyday things and situations. Even if they didn't seem all that special to us. That's what most of us have to do. That aside, Busytown is set in a small town. The culture of towns vary of course, but _generally_, small town life is vastly different from urban or suburban life. There is far less social isolation. (Most) people help each other out without needing to be asked. You may disagree with your neighbor's political opinions but can still have a beer with them in the backyard. And so on.

com2kid 2y ago

> No joke: every time I read my daughter a Richard Scarry book, I wonder when and how it will have to be broken to her that unless her interests happen to include something that pays a living wage, she’s actually fucked for life. Fight for housing reform. Fight for every YIMBY proposal that comes up. Demand drastic zoning reforms. 80% of the problem of affordability in the western world is housing. In the US at least, there is plenty of space left in most major cities (outside of NYC) to dramatically expand and make housing affordable again. The unaffordability of the modern world is a self caused problem. People want their house to rise 5% in value every year but are pissed off when restaurant prices go up 10% a year and daycares cost 30k a year. You know what, how about my house stays flat in value for a decade while wages catch up with housing costs, and in return I get to save 15k a year on daycare and eating out costs 5k a year less and property crime goes back down to reasonable levels? Vote for change.