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Then we will just have to agree to disagree, because in my eyes there’s no way that NYC’s average subway station is 1/10 as clean as one in London, or that the

Then we will just have to agree to disagree, because in my eyes there’s no way that NYC’s average subway station is 1/10 as clean as one in London, or that the regional train system is remotely as good as say, the S-Bahn system in Berlin.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> in my eyes there’s no way that NYC’s average subway station is 1/10 as clean as one in London It's not. But New York's subway is 24/7. The Tube is not. Different optimisations. During Covid, when stations could be shut down for a washdown they were clean. But they were closed. > or that the regional train system is remotely as good as say, the S-Bahn system in Berlin 95 to 99% on time rates, to within 6 minutes, begs to differ. There is a reason cars remain dominant in Germany [1]. Also, you're comparing rubber ducks and battleships. The Berlin S-Bahn has 1.5mm daily ridership across 211 miles [2]. Just the New York Subway has daily ridership over 5mm across 250 to 800 miles, depending on how you count [3]. Both at about 25 mph. The Metro North, New York's regional rail system, transport about a quarter of a million per day across 400 to 800 miles [4]. The New York metropolitan area holds its own against Germany's trains. Partly because they're both underpowered, one due to not being built up enough, the other due to deterioration. But partly because the New York metropolitan area has half of Germany's GDP with a quarter of its population [5][6][7][8]. [1] https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Passenger_mobility_statistics#Mobility_data_for_thirteen_Member_States_with_different_characteristics https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_S-Bahn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_S-Bahn [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Subway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Subway [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro-North_Railroad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro-North_Railroad [5] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/NGMP35620 https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/NGMP35620 [6] https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.CD?locations=DE https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.CD?location... [7] https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.CD?locations=DE https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.CD?location... [8] https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Society-Environment/Population/Current-Population/_node.html https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Society-Environment/Popula...
- keiferski 2y ago
  NYC stopped being the city that never sleeps a decade ago. That tagline is just hype at this point. Even if it was true, who cares about being able to take the subway at 3am? For the vast majority of citizens, this is a useless feature. I’d much rather have a clean efficient subway system that opens at 5 and closes at midnight. All of these points are the same tired talking points brought up anytime anyone criticizes something about NYC. It’s one reason I got tired of living there - for as big and diverse of a city as it is, it’s actually quite an insular, close-minded place that doesn’t like to be criticized. There is always a reason why something cannot be improved, and you’ve hit most of the items on the checklist here. Personally I find the S-Bahn system easier to use and more extensive than the NY system, but YMMV. Otherwise, this kind of conversation with a dozen footnotes is so tiresome. Yes, NYC has a good transit system. Yes, NYC is a big city, bigger than most cities in Europe. The original point of my comment was that no one in New York really cares about making it cleaner or nicer unless there is some financial justification for doing so. You’ve done nothing but prove my point here with your responses. The Bay Area is a similar situation: immense wealth in the area, and yet the quality of public spaces and infrastructure doesn’t reflect it. If you didn’t know better, you’d never guess that so much wealth is concentrated there. And then if you compare NYC to Tokyo, and suddenly all of those justifications disappear, because Tokyo is both larger and busier yet manages to have a nicer cleaner system. Which brings me to my original point, and the end of this sub conversation: culture is different in different places. Money has a centrality in American culture that it doesn’t have in Japan or Europe.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > NYC stopped being the city that never sleeps a decade ago I'll put a Post-It on the fridge when I get to my apartment there tomorrow. > who cares about being able to take the subway at 3am? Everyone I know in New York who works in medicine, for one. Everyone who has an early flight and wants to take the subway, either to their flight or to the airport where they work so the rest of us can take that flight. Everyone who wants to go to an outer-borough party and make it home without splurging on a cab. > always a reason why something cannot be improved Who said the Subway cannot be improved? Of course it can. It's dirty and we need more express lanes and more lines in general. The S-Bahn is a smaller, simpler system for a smaller, poorer economy. It's not what New York needs to aspire towards. Beijing, Shanghai and Tokyo should be our models, not Berlin. (Paris can come too. As can Italy and the Netherlands' national rails. Deutsche Bahn gets bounced.) > no one in New York really cares about making it cleaner or nicer unless there is some financial justification for doing so Cleaner, yes. Nicer envelopes value judgements. I'd prefer another dirty station. Berliners wouldn't. We get a bigger system; they get a smaller, cleaner one. > Bay Area is a similar situation: immense wealth in the area, and yet the quality of public spaces and infrastructure doesn’t reflect it Bad comparison. Bay Area transportation infrastructure is trash. (I grew up in the Bay Area, too, so no home-field advantage here.) > Money has a centrality in American culture that it doesn’t have in Japan or Europe Money doesn't make a New Yorker value more dirty stations over fewer clean ones. (Do socialists build cleaner train stations?) Again, look at the people with economic power in Europe and you see the same rapaciousness. There is simply less wealth to go around.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> in my eyes there’s no way that NYC’s average subway station is 1/10 as clean as one in London It's not. But New York's subway is 24/7. The Tube is not. Different optimisations. During Covid, when stations could be shut down for a washdown they were clean. But they were closed. > or that the regional train system is remotely as good as say, the S-Bahn system in Berlin 95 to 99% on time rates, to within 6 minutes, begs to differ. There is a reason cars remain dominant in Germany [1]. Also, you're comparing rubber ducks and battleships. The Berlin S-Bahn has 1.5mm daily ridership across 211 miles [2]. Just the New York Subway has daily ridership over 5mm across 250 to 800 miles, depending on how you count [3]. Both at about 25 mph. The Metro North, New York's regional rail system, transport about a quarter of a million per day across 400 to 800 miles [4]. The New York metropolitan area holds its own against Germany's trains. Partly because they're both underpowered, one due to not being built up enough, the other due to deterioration. But partly because the New York metropolitan area has half of Germany's GDP with a quarter of its population [5][6][7][8]. [1] https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Passenger_mobility_statistics#Mobility_data_for_thirteen_Member_States_with_different_characteristics https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_S-Bahn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_S-Bahn [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Subway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Subway [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro-North_Railroad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro-North_Railroad [5] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/NGMP35620 https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/NGMP35620 [6] https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.CD?locations=DE https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.CD?location... [7] https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.CD?locations=DE https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.CD?location... [8] https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Society-Environment/Population/Current-Population/_node.html https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Society-Environment/Popula...

keiferski 2y ago
NYC stopped being the city that never sleeps a decade ago. That tagline is just hype at this point. Even if it was true, who cares about being able to take the subway at 3am? For the vast majority of citizens, this is a useless feature. I’d much rather have a clean efficient subway system that opens at 5 and closes at midnight. All of these points are the same tired talking points brought up anytime anyone criticizes something about NYC. It’s one reason I got tired of living there - for as big and diverse of a city as it is, it’s actually quite an insular, close-minded place that doesn’t like to be criticized. There is always a reason why something cannot be improved, and you’ve hit most of the items on the checklist here. Personally I find the S-Bahn system easier to use and more extensive than the NY system, but YMMV. Otherwise, this kind of conversation with a dozen footnotes is so tiresome. Yes, NYC has a good transit system. Yes, NYC is a big city, bigger than most cities in Europe. The original point of my comment was that no one in New York really cares about making it cleaner or nicer unless there is some financial justification for doing so. You’ve done nothing but prove my point here with your responses. The Bay Area is a similar situation: immense wealth in the area, and yet the quality of public spaces and infrastructure doesn’t reflect it. If you didn’t know better, you’d never guess that so much wealth is concentrated there. And then if you compare NYC to Tokyo, and suddenly all of those justifications disappear, because Tokyo is both larger and busier yet manages to have a nicer cleaner system. Which brings me to my original point, and the end of this sub conversation: culture is different in different places. Money has a centrality in American culture that it doesn’t have in Japan or Europe.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > NYC stopped being the city that never sleeps a decade ago I'll put a Post-It on the fridge when I get to my apartment there tomorrow. > who cares about being able to take the subway at 3am? Everyone I know in New York who works in medicine, for one. Everyone who has an early flight and wants to take the subway, either to their flight or to the airport where they work so the rest of us can take that flight. Everyone who wants to go to an outer-borough party and make it home without splurging on a cab. > always a reason why something cannot be improved Who said the Subway cannot be improved? Of course it can. It's dirty and we need more express lanes and more lines in general. The S-Bahn is a smaller, simpler system for a smaller, poorer economy. It's not what New York needs to aspire towards. Beijing, Shanghai and Tokyo should be our models, not Berlin. (Paris can come too. As can Italy and the Netherlands' national rails. Deutsche Bahn gets bounced.) > no one in New York really cares about making it cleaner or nicer unless there is some financial justification for doing so Cleaner, yes. Nicer envelopes value judgements. I'd prefer another dirty station. Berliners wouldn't. We get a bigger system; they get a smaller, cleaner one. > Bay Area is a similar situation: immense wealth in the area, and yet the quality of public spaces and infrastructure doesn’t reflect it Bad comparison. Bay Area transportation infrastructure is trash. (I grew up in the Bay Area, too, so no home-field advantage here.) > Money has a centrality in American culture that it doesn’t have in Japan or Europe Money doesn't make a New Yorker value more dirty stations over fewer clean ones. (Do socialists build cleaner train stations?) Again, look at the people with economic power in Europe and you see the same rapaciousness. There is simply less wealth to go around.