4 ms·

> Linux is a kernel project, Is that useful pedantry? From context, you really think that's my confusion here? I didn't include *BSD either, but it isn't any d

by epcoa 2y ago

> Linux is a kernel project, Is that useful pedantry? From context, you really think that's my confusion here? I didn't include *BSD either, but it isn't any different for the relative handful of people using that for a desktop system. > Win32 is the native GUI toolkit on Windows. Winforms is a .NET wrapper to it. There isn't any debate to be had there. Except for Microsoft's numerous attempts to supplant it and the fact that the base OS doesn't even use it consistently for their own system. Microsoft's own File Explorer and Settings app that only had to live along with Control Panel for a decade, was that not native? They aren't "Win32". If you insist on pedantry, you should know Win32 isn't a GUI toolkit either, it's an anachronistic term for the Windows API. Nobody casually calls it USER though, and the bulk of people still targeting it do so through .NET these days via Winforms. If native just means provided by the vendors base system, ok, but then if there are 10 different forms of it, other than the distribution issue there isn't some great intrinsic benefit over just targeting Qt or Flutter. Especially when someone like Microsoft can't settle on a consistent design language through the years.

jeremyjh 2y ago
>Is that useful pedantry? From context, you really think that's my confusion here? I don't know what could possibly confuse anyone about the role of GTK and QT in the Linux ecosystem.
- epcoa 2y ago
  GTK 3 or 4? Xfce+MATE+Cinnamon are still popular enough options and I used the former for years. GTK itself isn't even a well defined target. And GTK3 apps of which there are plenty do not appear native in a modern GNOME desktop much more so than a decent Qt app does. The thing is that people in the real world talk about Linux support for an app, as in Desktop Linux support, and the only common denominator there for years was basically X11. I have heard exactly no one ever ask, oh when is that app going to be available for KDE or GNOME. For example, to take something recent here, do the people writing the Zed editor promise a particular DE support - no it's available for "Linux." As to earlier mentioning distros - for a GUI app, there’s more pain from intra-distro variation than inter-distro, both across configurations and supported versions. Now the big thing, the even bigger thing is probably native Wayland vs X11, but no one says, oh vendor will you please bring your app to KDE or GNOME, specifically. 99% of the time you are happy if you get anything at all. So the concept of native on Linux (Desktop Linux) just isn't something usually worth discussing.
skissane 2y ago
> If you insist on pedantry, you should know Win32 isn't a GUI toolkit either, it's an anachronistic term for the Windows API. I don’t think it is “anachronistic” - as far as I am aware it is still the official name. And I don’t think calling it the “Windows API” is right, since Win32 is just one of the APIs that Windows offers. If I’m calling CreateFile, I’m using the Win32 API, but if I’m calling NtCreateFile, I’m not using the Win32 API, I’m using the native NT API instead. If I set the subsystem as NT instead of Win32 in my executable’s PE header, calls to native NT APIs such as NtCreateFile will still work fine, attempts to use Win32 subsystem APIs won’t. And there are other APIs Windows has which aren’t (strictly speaking) part of either the native NT API or the Win32 API - COM and the many APIs built on top of it, .Net, WinRT, DirectX, etc. But you are right that Win32 isn’t a GUI toolkit. It contains a rather basic and old-fashioned GUI toolkit (USER), but it contains a lot of non-GUI APIs too. I’m reasonably familiar with those parts of the Win32 API used by services and console mode apps, but if you asked me to write a Win32 GUI event loop I’d be asking ChatGPT to remind me how, because while I’ve read tutorials I’ve never actually attempted it.
- epcoa 2y ago
  The name itself is anachronistic, what does the 32 stand for? You call CreateFile with 64-bit pointers, it was still considered Win32 (until they officially changed it). But take it up with Microsoft: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/apiindex/windows-api-list https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/apiindex/win... "Using the Windows API, you can develop applications that run successfully on all versions of Windows while taking advantage of the features and capabilities unique to each version. (Note that this was formerly called the Win32 API. The name Windows API more accurately reflects its roots in 16-bit Windows and its support on 64-bit Windows.)" The URL still has win32 in it, lol. Though this naming goes back nearly 2 decades https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/previous-versions/tn-archive/bb496995(v=technet.10) https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/previous-versions/tn-archi... The API provided by ntdll is semi-officially called the "Native" API and much of it is subsumed into the Windows API. The PE subsystem names you are referring to are IMAGE_SUBSYSTEM_NATIVE and IMAGE_SUBSYSTEM_WINDOWS_GUI/CUI, so it's somewhat consistent. Microsoft officially refers to that API as Native System Services in the documentation for the DDK. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/resources/inside-native-applications https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/resources/ins...

by epcoa 2y ago

jeremyjh 2y ago

>Is that useful pedantry? From context, you really think that's my confusion here? I don't know what could possibly confuse anyone about the role of GTK and QT in the Linux ecosystem.

epcoa 2y ago
GTK 3 or 4? Xfce+MATE+Cinnamon are still popular enough options and I used the former for years. GTK itself isn't even a well defined target. And GTK3 apps of which there are plenty do not appear native in a modern GNOME desktop much more so than a decent Qt app does. The thing is that people in the real world talk about Linux support for an app, as in Desktop Linux support, and the only common denominator there for years was basically X11. I have heard exactly no one ever ask, oh when is that app going to be available for KDE or GNOME. For example, to take something recent here, do the people writing the Zed editor promise a particular DE support - no it's available for "Linux." As to earlier mentioning distros - for a GUI app, there’s more pain from intra-distro variation than inter-distro, both across configurations and supported versions. Now the big thing, the even bigger thing is probably native Wayland vs X11, but no one says, oh vendor will you please bring your app to KDE or GNOME, specifically. 99% of the time you are happy if you get anything at all. So the concept of native on Linux (Desktop Linux) just isn't something usually worth discussing.

skissane 2y ago

> If you insist on pedantry, you should know Win32 isn't a GUI toolkit either, it's an anachronistic term for the Windows API. I don’t think it is “anachronistic” - as far as I am aware it is still the official name. And I don’t think calling it the “Windows API” is right, since Win32 is just one of the APIs that Windows offers. If I’m calling CreateFile, I’m using the Win32 API, but if I’m calling NtCreateFile, I’m not using the Win32 API, I’m using the native NT API instead. If I set the subsystem as NT instead of Win32 in my executable’s PE header, calls to native NT APIs such as NtCreateFile will still work fine, attempts to use Win32 subsystem APIs won’t. And there are other APIs Windows has which aren’t (strictly speaking) part of either the native NT API or the Win32 API - COM and the many APIs built on top of it, .Net, WinRT, DirectX, etc. But you are right that Win32 isn’t a GUI toolkit. It contains a rather basic and old-fashioned GUI toolkit (USER), but it contains a lot of non-GUI APIs too. I’m reasonably familiar with those parts of the Win32 API used by services and console mode apps, but if you asked me to write a Win32 GUI event loop I’d be asking ChatGPT to remind me how, because while I’ve read tutorials I’ve never actually attempted it.

epcoa 2y ago
The name itself is anachronistic, what does the 32 stand for? You call CreateFile with 64-bit pointers, it was still considered Win32 (until they officially changed it). But take it up with Microsoft: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/apiindex/windows-api-list https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/apiindex/win... "Using the Windows API, you can develop applications that run successfully on all versions of Windows while taking advantage of the features and capabilities unique to each version. (Note that this was formerly called the Win32 API. The name Windows API more accurately reflects its roots in 16-bit Windows and its support on 64-bit Windows.)" The URL still has win32 in it, lol. Though this naming goes back nearly 2 decades https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/previous-versions/tn-archive/bb496995(v=technet.10) https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/previous-versions/tn-archi... The API provided by ntdll is semi-officially called the "Native" API and much of it is subsumed into the Windows API. The PE subsystem names you are referring to are IMAGE_SUBSYSTEM_NATIVE and IMAGE_SUBSYSTEM_WINDOWS_GUI/CUI, so it's somewhat consistent. Microsoft officially refers to that API as Native System Services in the documentation for the DDK. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/resources/inside-native-applications https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/resources/ins...