3 ms·

Maybe I'm too optimistic. If someone close is spoiling for a fight using a pretext, I believe there must be some reason that person wants to fight, other than

by zupatol 18y ago

Maybe I'm too optimistic. If someone close is spoiling for a fight using a pretext, I believe there must be some reason that person wants to fight, other than pure spontaneous hate. The fight is an opportunity to find out what this reason is, and if something can be done about it. Disagreement is not exactly the right word for what I meant. It's too specific and makes it sound like a matter of opinion. Often it's not clear why animosity sparks up, it might be some feeling that you only discover by expressing it in a fight. Let's use the word 'problem' instead. The fight I started with that friend could have been a discussion, but became a fight because I found it too hard to keep my self-control. As a result we made some of the mistakes Crichton describes. Still, it was an attempt at solving a problem. It was not a disagreement about facts or opinions, the problem was that I felt insulted by some of his behavior. What I wanted was either that he showed some kind of regret, or that he explained why I was wrong to feel insulted. I would have considered both of these outcomes a win. I'm not sure what you mean by losing a fight.

randallsquared 18y ago
Most people are not you. :) In fact, it might be that you aren't really like this except while dispassionately considering things after the fact: I know that I, personally, like nothing more when I'm angry or depressed than to continue to be angry or depressed, and there's an emotional bonus if I can feel justified in my anger or depression. Someone (Sandra Tayler, I believe) once said that you can't argue someone out of being upset; the best you can accomplish by arguing is to make them also feel stupid for feeling upset. For most people, "explained why I was wrong to feel insulted" could go either way. If the friend explained that he hadn't meant to offend, then it might be that the upset would go away. This is a win for the relationship, but as the argument just evaporates, there's no win or loss for either party (unless you can manage to feel like a winner anyway, I guess). If he pointed out that you'd totally blown this out of proportion, and if you'd only paid attention / thought about it / cared enough, then you'd not have felt insulted, then this could easily seem like a loss for you, and a win for him. In my (sadly, ended) marriage, it seemed rare that an argument we had was really about what the words were about, though I often didn't know until later what the argument had really been started by. Arguments seemed pretty rare, though, and only at the end did I find out that she thought we'd argued all the time, and that I never budged or was willing to lose an argument. Had I known we were having these arguments (which seemed like discussions to me), I could have easily arranged to lose enough of them to keep the balance -- it wasn't that I wanted to win; I just didn't understand she was losing. Hence my statement about either winning or losing arguments too much putting strain on a relationship. All this stuff seems clearer from a distance, to me. :/
- zupatol 18y ago
  It's true you can't argue someone out of being upset, because his emotions are distinct from his understanding of the situation. But if his anger is fueled by his view of the situation, changing his view will help him get his anger under control. You are right there is an emotional bonus when the anger feels justified, and you are right to be skeptical when I say that in a fight one of the things I'm going for is to feel stupid for being upset. I'm probably harder to convince I'm wrong when I'm angry, but still I know it's then that I need it most. The best outcome is when the problem simply disappears because I realize it was only in my head. I'm not saying I'm capable of pulling this off everytime I should. In the fight I mentioned, my friend was actually pointing out that I blew the thing out of proportion, and didn't bother convincing me about the details. I understand now that what you mean by losing a fight is admitting you were wrong. This is indeed embarassing, but it's also your victory over yourself. Your idea of arranging to lose a fight sounds dangerous. I once did that with a coworker. I admitted I was wrong just to end an argument. When the coworker later found out I didn't really believe I had been wrong, there was no longer enough trust to solve the problem in a discussion.
  - Create 18y ago
    If you are optimistic, it will spread in your entourage (it appears to be contagious in a way nobody understands, see oxytocin). Not only it gets rid of being upset and ungry, it will restore trust with time, if and only if it is sincere* (like regret on the other side). *"Whenever there is any doubt, there is no doubt"
  - randallsquared 18y ago
    Sometimes "losing a fight" can just be agreeing to do something their way, if the fight is superficially about some course of action, etc. I don't think arranging to lose a fight is dangerous for all types of relationships. I think a personal relationship is less likely to be damaged by that than a working relationship, since in a personal relationship, deliberately losing a fight is (or can be seen as) a sacrifice you're making for your friend or SO.

by zupatol 18y ago

randallsquared 18y ago

Most people are not you. :) In fact, it might be that you aren't really like this except while dispassionately considering things after the fact: I know that I, personally, like nothing more when I'm angry or depressed than to continue to be angry or depressed, and there's an emotional bonus if I can feel justified in my anger or depression. Someone (Sandra Tayler, I believe) once said that you can't argue someone out of being upset; the best you can accomplish by arguing is to make them also feel stupid for feeling upset. For most people, "explained why I was wrong to feel insulted" could go either way. If the friend explained that he hadn't meant to offend, then it might be that the upset would go away. This is a win for the relationship, but as the argument just evaporates, there's no win or loss for either party (unless you can manage to feel like a winner anyway, I guess). If he pointed out that you'd totally blown this out of proportion, and if you'd only paid attention / thought about it / cared enough, then you'd not have felt insulted, then this could easily seem like a loss for you, and a win for him. In my (sadly, ended) marriage, it seemed rare that an argument we had was really about what the words were about, though I often didn't know until later what the argument had really been started by. Arguments seemed pretty rare, though, and only at the end did I find out that she thought we'd argued all the time, and that I never budged or was willing to lose an argument. Had I known we were having these arguments (which seemed like discussions to me), I could have easily arranged to lose enough of them to keep the balance -- it wasn't that I wanted to win; I just didn't understand she was losing. Hence my statement about either winning or losing arguments too much putting strain on a relationship. All this stuff seems clearer from a distance, to me. :/

zupatol 18y ago
It's true you can't argue someone out of being upset, because his emotions are distinct from his understanding of the situation. But if his anger is fueled by his view of the situation, changing his view will help him get his anger under control. You are right there is an emotional bonus when the anger feels justified, and you are right to be skeptical when I say that in a fight one of the things I'm going for is to feel stupid for being upset. I'm probably harder to convince I'm wrong when I'm angry, but still I know it's then that I need it most. The best outcome is when the problem simply disappears because I realize it was only in my head. I'm not saying I'm capable of pulling this off everytime I should. In the fight I mentioned, my friend was actually pointing out that I blew the thing out of proportion, and didn't bother convincing me about the details. I understand now that what you mean by losing a fight is admitting you were wrong. This is indeed embarassing, but it's also your victory over yourself. Your idea of arranging to lose a fight sounds dangerous. I once did that with a coworker. I admitted I was wrong just to end an argument. When the coworker later found out I didn't really believe I had been wrong, there was no longer enough trust to solve the problem in a discussion.
- Create 18y ago
  If you are optimistic, it will spread in your entourage (it appears to be contagious in a way nobody understands, see oxytocin). Not only it gets rid of being upset and ungry, it will restore trust with time, if and only if it is sincere* (like regret on the other side). *"Whenever there is any doubt, there is no doubt"
- randallsquared 18y ago
  Sometimes "losing a fight" can just be agreeing to do something their way, if the fight is superficially about some course of action, etc. I don't think arranging to lose a fight is dangerous for all types of relationships. I think a personal relationship is less likely to be damaged by that than a working relationship, since in a personal relationship, deliberately losing a fight is (or can be seen as) a sacrifice you're making for your friend or SO.