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Men used to have one path and it came with some near-guaranteed value and status. Now, men have to choose from two paths, and neither one has that same level of

Men used to have one path and it came with some near-guaranteed value and status. Now, men have to choose from two paths, and neither one has that same level of guarantee. That's a problem in an of itself because it leads to a psychology of grievance. And it's not imagined! Men do indeed have a worse deal than they used to by a ton of metrics. But once men stop crying about what was, they do have a choice. And there are new sets of problems and benefits that come with those choices. Choosing the traditional side is to pick the losing side, but that varies by geography. Not only does it still come with a lot of benefits in some places, but it's kind of the only viable option in some places. The problem is that society can no longer accommodate 80-90% of men in those situations choosing the traditional path. Maybe more like half. So we end up with a lot of losers. Sad, angry, strong, well-armed losers. But the other path IS viable. You can move to [name any big city], get an education, get a decent job, paint your nails, treat women nicely and, if you ask me, have better relationships, better sex, better lives than were ever available to most men in the past.

consteval 2y ago
> But the other path IS viable. You can move to [name any big city], get an education, get a decent job, paint your nails, treat women nicely and, if you ask me, have better relationships, better sex, better lives than were ever available to most men in the past. I agree this is viable, but you have to understand that for heterosexual men they face a lot of day-to-day backlashes for this. You have to understand the vast majority of women will not consider a relationship with them. And they will suffer in their career as well. Lack of masculinity, or rather perceived masculinity, in men means lack of respect across the board. Because progressivism has not focused on that, so we're still dealing with many decades old understanding of masculinity. Even extremely surface-level reimagining, such as painting nails, is fringe. And I think that really demonstrates the problem. I mean, forget emotional intelligence or vulnerability. We're battling black nail polish. We haven't even begun to take a crack at the simplest, most surface level stuff. Let alone the deeper stuff. I said this in another comment, but modern heterosexual men are in a strange position where they have to perfect the art of performing masculinity in most situations, and then leaving hints of progressivism where other's find it most convenient. Ultimately, even the most progressive woman is looking for a man who is somewhat kind and maybe he can get away with painting his nails. But he must still be masculine, he must not cry very much if ever, and he must always be a low level of emotional labor. Women want to deal with things like grappling with the shame of dating a man who paints his nails and the social repercussions of that, they don't also have the bandwidth to deal with, say, depression. That's step 100, we're still getting past step 1.
- skyyler 2y ago
  > Women want to deal with things like grappling with the shame of dating a man who paints his nails and the social repercussions of that, they don't also have the bandwidth to deal with, say, depression. When you say “women” here, do you mean yourself? Do you mean the women you have interacted with in the past? Do you mean all women, everywhere? How do you know how they feel about this?
  - consteval 2y ago
    This is all purely anecdotal as I've noted at the beginning, because there's no studies on this or anyone looking into this at all. I don't mean myself, I mean the heterosexual women and men I know. I'm gay, almost all my friends are women and it's just what I've observed. And, to be clear, I'm not blaming women. Because relationships, too, are a performance. This part is really important: > Women want to deal with things like grappling with the shame of dating a man who paints his nails and the social repercussions of that It's not just men who lose respect when masculinity isn't performed to a high enough standard, women associated with them lose respect too. Women have a lot to deal with, it's unreasonable for them to also take on additional emotional burden when they already have to manage the appearance of their relationship to outsiders. As for how I know how they "feel" - well, I don't. But I see their actions and what they choose to tell me. From what I've seen, it's extremely risky for heterosexual men to be vulnerable in their relationships. The odds are incredibly high that will come back to bite them, often immediately, sometimes much later. And, women seem very hesitant to talk about any perceived feminine traits in the men they date. Typically, they do the opposite, almost talk them up. I think there's some perception management going on.
- standardUser 2y ago
  I really appreciate your perspectives on this. This is possibly the most important conversation of the current era and, like you've expressed, we've barely begun to have it. The part that strikes me the most is the idea that women aren't ready to accept new gender norms among men. We're definitely in a transition era where expectations are out of whack. I do think a lot of women want an unrealistic blend of traditional masculinity with just the right types and amounts of femininity. And they are not finding it very often. This is one of several recent surveys that show a sharp and rapid turn away from traditional gender and sexuality: https://news.gallup.com/poll/611864/lgbtq-identification.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/611864/lgbtq-identification.asp... The trend is obvious in Millennials and then it absolutely skyrockets among Gen Z. More than a quarter of Gen Z women are rejecting traditional straightness in one capacity or another. I imagine many more have perspectives that are far more open than the traditional norm, even if doesn't change how they identify. I think that these women are capable of accepting a new form of masculinity in their partners. I think they are 10 steps ahead and they create a huge opportunity for men to embrace their gender in different ways without being ostracized. In fact, I think men will be rewarded, and the allure of those rewards will accelerate male rejection of traditional masculinity. Not to get too personal, but in my hyper-progressive bubble of NYC, I see this exact dynamic playing out amongst my younger friends in their late 20's to late 30's. And they aren't even Gen Z. I like to think it's a preview of the large trends to come.
shiroiushi 2y ago
>But the other path IS viable. You can move to [name any big city], get an education, get a decent job, paint your nails, treat women nicely and, if you ask me, have better relationships, better sex, I'm sorry, this is total BS. Sure, you can move to a big US city and paint your nails and not have knuckle-dragging men harassing you about it like back in the rural areas, but you're not going to get much, if any, romantic interest from the "progressive" heterosexual women there. They'll treat you like a gay man: they'll be friendly with you and that's it.

consteval 2y ago

> But the other path IS viable. You can move to [name any big city], get an education, get a decent job, paint your nails, treat women nicely and, if you ask me, have better relationships, better sex, better lives than were ever available to most men in the past. I agree this is viable, but you have to understand that for heterosexual men they face a lot of day-to-day backlashes for this. You have to understand the vast majority of women will not consider a relationship with them. And they will suffer in their career as well. Lack of masculinity, or rather perceived masculinity, in men means lack of respect across the board. Because progressivism has not focused on that, so we're still dealing with many decades old understanding of masculinity. Even extremely surface-level reimagining, such as painting nails, is fringe. And I think that really demonstrates the problem. I mean, forget emotional intelligence or vulnerability. We're battling black nail polish. We haven't even begun to take a crack at the simplest, most surface level stuff. Let alone the deeper stuff. I said this in another comment, but modern heterosexual men are in a strange position where they have to perfect the art of performing masculinity in most situations, and then leaving hints of progressivism where other's find it most convenient. Ultimately, even the most progressive woman is looking for a man who is somewhat kind and maybe he can get away with painting his nails. But he must still be masculine, he must not cry very much if ever, and he must always be a low level of emotional labor. Women want to deal with things like grappling with the shame of dating a man who paints his nails and the social repercussions of that, they don't also have the bandwidth to deal with, say, depression. That's step 100, we're still getting past step 1.

skyyler 2y ago
> Women want to deal with things like grappling with the shame of dating a man who paints his nails and the social repercussions of that, they don't also have the bandwidth to deal with, say, depression. When you say “women” here, do you mean yourself? Do you mean the women you have interacted with in the past? Do you mean all women, everywhere? How do you know how they feel about this?
- consteval 2y ago
  This is all purely anecdotal as I've noted at the beginning, because there's no studies on this or anyone looking into this at all. I don't mean myself, I mean the heterosexual women and men I know. I'm gay, almost all my friends are women and it's just what I've observed. And, to be clear, I'm not blaming women. Because relationships, too, are a performance. This part is really important: > Women want to deal with things like grappling with the shame of dating a man who paints his nails and the social repercussions of that It's not just men who lose respect when masculinity isn't performed to a high enough standard, women associated with them lose respect too. Women have a lot to deal with, it's unreasonable for them to also take on additional emotional burden when they already have to manage the appearance of their relationship to outsiders. As for how I know how they "feel" - well, I don't. But I see their actions and what they choose to tell me. From what I've seen, it's extremely risky for heterosexual men to be vulnerable in their relationships. The odds are incredibly high that will come back to bite them, often immediately, sometimes much later. And, women seem very hesitant to talk about any perceived feminine traits in the men they date. Typically, they do the opposite, almost talk them up. I think there's some perception management going on.
standardUser 2y ago
I really appreciate your perspectives on this. This is possibly the most important conversation of the current era and, like you've expressed, we've barely begun to have it. The part that strikes me the most is the idea that women aren't ready to accept new gender norms among men. We're definitely in a transition era where expectations are out of whack. I do think a lot of women want an unrealistic blend of traditional masculinity with just the right types and amounts of femininity. And they are not finding it very often. This is one of several recent surveys that show a sharp and rapid turn away from traditional gender and sexuality: https://news.gallup.com/poll/611864/lgbtq-identification.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/611864/lgbtq-identification.asp... The trend is obvious in Millennials and then it absolutely skyrockets among Gen Z. More than a quarter of Gen Z women are rejecting traditional straightness in one capacity or another. I imagine many more have perspectives that are far more open than the traditional norm, even if doesn't change how they identify. I think that these women are capable of accepting a new form of masculinity in their partners. I think they are 10 steps ahead and they create a huge opportunity for men to embrace their gender in different ways without being ostracized. In fact, I think men will be rewarded, and the allure of those rewards will accelerate male rejection of traditional masculinity. Not to get too personal, but in my hyper-progressive bubble of NYC, I see this exact dynamic playing out amongst my younger friends in their late 20's to late 30's. And they aren't even Gen Z. I like to think it's a preview of the large trends to come.

shiroiushi 2y ago

>But the other path IS viable. You can move to [name any big city], get an education, get a decent job, paint your nails, treat women nicely and, if you ask me, have better relationships, better sex, I'm sorry, this is total BS. Sure, you can move to a big US city and paint your nails and not have knuckle-dragging men harassing you about it like back in the rural areas, but you're not going to get much, if any, romantic interest from the "progressive" heterosexual women there. They'll treat you like a gay man: they'll be friendly with you and that's it.