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While all of this is a heavy tangent to the actual article we're discussing, I'm not sure if Russia, China, Iran et al are exactly the kind of competition we sh

While all of this is a heavy tangent to the actual article we're discussing, I'm not sure if Russia, China, Iran et al are exactly the kind of competition we should be fostering and cheering on.

griffzhowl 2y ago
The I stands for India, not Iran
- Etheryte 2y ago
  Iran is also a member of BRICS, there's more members than the abbreviation lets on. The current list is Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa, Egypt, Ethiopia and Iran.
  - griffzhowl 2y ago
    Ah, fair enough
  - 6510 2y ago
    You missed Ethiopia and the United Arab Emirates. There are 10 members and 26 applicants. Combined some ~57% of the world population and they have twice as much land as the EU and US combined. They also have terrifying amount of cheap labor and China is far ahead of the west in many kinds of manufacturing.
    - shiroiushi 2y ago
      It'd be really interesting to see some sci-fi set in the not-so-distance future (maybe 50-200 years ahead) predicting a future where the western-aligned democratic nations fall, and various brutal authoritarian regimes take over the world and variously compete or collaborate with each other. It wouldn't look pretty I think, but at least it'd probably be a realistic look at humanity's future. I'm guessing it would look something like "1984" but with more political powers and much better technology.
      - saturn8601 2y ago
        Lets hope that remains sci-fi. A better future is the rest of the non western world improving their living standards and eventually transitioning to some semblance of democracy.
        shiroiushi 2y ago
        At the moment, that possible future looks like total fantasy. Instead, it seems like many of the western democracies are going to turn into authoritarian governments, and meanwhile the non-western nations seem to be more than happy with their authoritarian leaders (or at least not unhappy enough to actually do anything about it). When was the last time an authoritarian system was toppled from within anyway, without a big western power coming in and doing it for them by force?
        saturn8601 2y ago
        We just passed the 60 year anniversary of the Civil Rights Act. Since then we have seen enormous progress with humanity across the globe. Some have progressed faster than others and yes there has been some regression but if you zoom out, its a massive net improvement. The US has even been here before. After Lincoln was assassinated, he was replaced by a guy who many historians agree was the worst president in the history of the US, a man who arrived to his own inauguration drunk and someone who plunged the country into a shameful part of its history. Im not saying we aren't in for some serious tough times but I am feeling confident that in the long run it will swing back into the direction of progress. The US is currently in a period of immense transition to a new chapter. The upcoming generation (Gen Alpha) will be the first generation that is majority non white. What will the country be like when they come of political age? What values will it have? Given what I have seen so far from Gen Alpha (and Gen Z) Im feeling quite good that they will be positive values. >When was the last time an authoritarian system was toppled from within anyway, without a big western power coming in and doing it for them by force? Well you could argue the Soviet system was bound to fail due to the inherent hypocrisies it had. China is powerful enough that they cannot be easily influenced by the US but there is still massive trouble ahead for them. Their birth rate might stall their economic growth and that is the only thing really keeping the machine going there. I'm not saying they are guaranteed to collapse but it isn't looking good.
    - Etheryte 2y ago
      United Arab Emirates is not a part of BRICS, at least not as far as I last checked. They were invited to join and were scheduled to join early 2024, but at least early this year they still had not joined the organization [0]. I think the Wikipedia article intro for BRICS is incorrect, if you check the members list [1] then you see UAB is not in it. [0] https://www.reuters.com/world/saudi-arabia-has-not-yet-joined-brics-saudi-official-source-2024-02-01/ https://www.reuters.com/world/saudi-arabia-has-not-yet-joine... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRICS#Member_states https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRICS#Member_states
      - 6510 2y ago
        https://www.mofa.gov.ae/en/mediahub/news/2023/8/25/25-8-2023-uae-brics#:~:text=The%20UAE%20has%20been%20a%20long-term%20partner%20of,Meeting%2C%20chaired%20by%20the%20Republic%20of%20South%20Africa https://www.mofa.gov.ae/en/mediahub/news/2023/8/25/25-8-2023....
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
frankharv 2y ago
I have to wonder what the world would look like if USA did not go along with Chinas entry into the WTO. Why a communist state was afforded WTO status is puzzling. Look at the situation now. Slick Willie did that. Press release about how bad we fscked up: https://ustr.gov/about-us/policy-offices/press-office/press-releases/2024/february/ustr-releases-annual-report-chinas-wto-compliance https://ustr.gov/about-us/policy-offices/press-office/press-...
- mattgrice 2y ago
  Let's be honest here, there was a long period of negotiation that spanned the Reagan - Clinton admins as well as approval from congress required. Everyone said it was a golden opportunity to open up a huge new market for US goods. I was doing a concentration in Chinese History in the late 90s and was flabbergasted at the very mainstream idea that this was going to be a win-win. I guess at the time they thought Russia was going to be a liberal democracy, too. I suspect a lot of powerful people knew that it would hurt US workers, US industrial strength, were neutral on the latter, positive on the former, and very positive about profits (during their lifetime).
  - James_K 2y ago
    The theory of comparative advantage is that both countries will benefit, and I think these people put a lot of stock in their own theories. As I understand it, what they wanted was a situation where high skill US workers focus on design and innovation, meanwhile China does the manufacturing for all of it. Not a bad setup really, if you ignore the fact that China probably wants to cut the US out of that equation.
  - roenxi 2y ago
    There probably were probably a bunch of people who'd internalised the message that capitalism favours the wealthy party and weren't expecting what actually happened. But nevertheless the history books will record the period as one of generosity, and a successful international strategy that is to be emulated. It is hard to look at a billion+ people rising out of poverty and call it anything but a win.
  - 2y ago
londons_explore 2y ago
I prefer bad competition to no competition. They still keep the good guys more honest than they'd be with no competition.
- neuralRiot 2y ago
  Would you like a criminal union to keep police at bay?

While all of this is a heavy tangent to the actual article we're discussing, I'm not sure if Russia, China, Iran et al are exactly the kind of competition we should be fostering and cheering on.

griffzhowl 2y ago

The I stands for India, not Iran

Etheryte 2y ago
Iran is also a member of BRICS, there's more members than the abbreviation lets on. The current list is Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa, Egypt, Ethiopia and Iran.
- griffzhowl 2y ago
  Ah, fair enough
- 6510 2y ago
  You missed Ethiopia and the United Arab Emirates. There are 10 members and 26 applicants. Combined some ~57% of the world population and they have twice as much land as the EU and US combined. They also have terrifying amount of cheap labor and China is far ahead of the west in many kinds of manufacturing.
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    It'd be really interesting to see some sci-fi set in the not-so-distance future (maybe 50-200 years ahead) predicting a future where the western-aligned democratic nations fall, and various brutal authoritarian regimes take over the world and variously compete or collaborate with each other. It wouldn't look pretty I think, but at least it'd probably be a realistic look at humanity's future. I'm guessing it would look something like "1984" but with more political powers and much better technology.
    - saturn8601 2y ago
      Lets hope that remains sci-fi. A better future is the rest of the non western world improving their living standards and eventually transitioning to some semblance of democracy.
      - shiroiushi 2y ago
        At the moment, that possible future looks like total fantasy. Instead, it seems like many of the western democracies are going to turn into authoritarian governments, and meanwhile the non-western nations seem to be more than happy with their authoritarian leaders (or at least not unhappy enough to actually do anything about it). When was the last time an authoritarian system was toppled from within anyway, without a big western power coming in and doing it for them by force?
        saturn8601 2y ago
        We just passed the 60 year anniversary of the Civil Rights Act. Since then we have seen enormous progress with humanity across the globe. Some have progressed faster than others and yes there has been some regression but if you zoom out, its a massive net improvement. The US has even been here before. After Lincoln was assassinated, he was replaced by a guy who many historians agree was the worst president in the history of the US, a man who arrived to his own inauguration drunk and someone who plunged the country into a shameful part of its history. Im not saying we aren't in for some serious tough times but I am feeling confident that in the long run it will swing back into the direction of progress. The US is currently in a period of immense transition to a new chapter. The upcoming generation (Gen Alpha) will be the first generation that is majority non white. What will the country be like when they come of political age? What values will it have? Given what I have seen so far from Gen Alpha (and Gen Z) Im feeling quite good that they will be positive values. >When was the last time an authoritarian system was toppled from within anyway, without a big western power coming in and doing it for them by force? Well you could argue the Soviet system was bound to fail due to the inherent hypocrisies it had. China is powerful enough that they cannot be easily influenced by the US but there is still massive trouble ahead for them. Their birth rate might stall their economic growth and that is the only thing really keeping the machine going there. I'm not saying they are guaranteed to collapse but it isn't looking good.
  - Etheryte 2y ago
    United Arab Emirates is not a part of BRICS, at least not as far as I last checked. They were invited to join and were scheduled to join early 2024, but at least early this year they still had not joined the organization [0]. I think the Wikipedia article intro for BRICS is incorrect, if you check the members list [1] then you see UAB is not in it. [0] https://www.reuters.com/world/saudi-arabia-has-not-yet-joined-brics-saudi-official-source-2024-02-01/ https://www.reuters.com/world/saudi-arabia-has-not-yet-joine... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRICS#Member_states https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRICS#Member_states
    - 6510 2y ago
      https://www.mofa.gov.ae/en/mediahub/news/2023/8/25/25-8-2023-uae-brics#:~:text=The%20UAE%20has%20been%20a%20long-term%20partner%20of,Meeting%2C%20chaired%20by%20the%20Republic%20of%20South%20Africa https://www.mofa.gov.ae/en/mediahub/news/2023/8/25/25-8-2023....

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

frankharv 2y ago

I have to wonder what the world would look like if USA did not go along with Chinas entry into the WTO. Why a communist state was afforded WTO status is puzzling. Look at the situation now. Slick Willie did that. Press release about how bad we fscked up: https://ustr.gov/about-us/policy-offices/press-office/press-releases/2024/february/ustr-releases-annual-report-chinas-wto-compliance https://ustr.gov/about-us/policy-offices/press-office/press-...

mattgrice 2y ago
Let's be honest here, there was a long period of negotiation that spanned the Reagan - Clinton admins as well as approval from congress required. Everyone said it was a golden opportunity to open up a huge new market for US goods. I was doing a concentration in Chinese History in the late 90s and was flabbergasted at the very mainstream idea that this was going to be a win-win. I guess at the time they thought Russia was going to be a liberal democracy, too. I suspect a lot of powerful people knew that it would hurt US workers, US industrial strength, were neutral on the latter, positive on the former, and very positive about profits (during their lifetime).
- James_K 2y ago
  The theory of comparative advantage is that both countries will benefit, and I think these people put a lot of stock in their own theories. As I understand it, what they wanted was a situation where high skill US workers focus on design and innovation, meanwhile China does the manufacturing for all of it. Not a bad setup really, if you ignore the fact that China probably wants to cut the US out of that equation.
- roenxi 2y ago
  There probably were probably a bunch of people who'd internalised the message that capitalism favours the wealthy party and weren't expecting what actually happened. But nevertheless the history books will record the period as one of generosity, and a successful international strategy that is to be emulated. It is hard to look at a billion+ people rising out of poverty and call it anything but a win.
- 2y ago

londons_explore 2y ago

I prefer bad competition to no competition. They still keep the good guys more honest than they'd be with no competition.

neuralRiot 2y ago
Would you like a criminal union to keep police at bay?