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Whats your beef with BRICS? There should be competition in the world against the US dollar. It keeps the West more honest if there was someone nipping at their

Whats your beef with BRICS? There should be competition in the world against the US dollar. It keeps the West more honest if there was someone nipping at their heels. Yeah its a mess backed by some unsavory countries but at least they are trying. Think about everything in your life. There is always at least 2-3 options. Why don't we really have that at a country level? We got the US, the rest of the west is essentially just vassal states for them and then we maybe got China but they may collapse before they amount to anything. Thats it.

Etheryte 2y ago
While all of this is a heavy tangent to the actual article we're discussing, I'm not sure if Russia, China, Iran et al are exactly the kind of competition we should be fostering and cheering on.
- griffzhowl 2y ago
  The I stands for India, not Iran
  - Etheryte 2y ago
    Iran is also a member of BRICS, there's more members than the abbreviation lets on. The current list is Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa, Egypt, Ethiopia and Iran.
    - griffzhowl 2y ago
      Ah, fair enough
    - 6510 2y ago
      You missed Ethiopia and the United Arab Emirates. There are 10 members and 26 applicants. Combined some ~57% of the world population and they have twice as much land as the EU and US combined. They also have terrifying amount of cheap labor and China is far ahead of the west in many kinds of manufacturing.
      - shiroiushi 2y ago
        It'd be really interesting to see some sci-fi set in the not-so-distance future (maybe 50-200 years ahead) predicting a future where the western-aligned democratic nations fall, and various brutal authoritarian regimes take over the world and variously compete or collaborate with each other. It wouldn't look pretty I think, but at least it'd probably be a realistic look at humanity's future. I'm guessing it would look something like "1984" but with more political powers and much better technology.
        saturn8601 2y ago
        Lets hope that remains sci-fi. A better future is the rest of the non western world improving their living standards and eventually transitioning to some semblance of democracy.
        shiroiushi 2y ago
        At the moment, that possible future looks like total fantasy. Instead, it seems like many of the western democracies are going to turn into authoritarian governments, and meanwhile the non-western nations seem to be more than happy with their authoritarian leaders (or at least not unhappy enough to actually do anything about it). When was the last time an authoritarian system was toppled from within anyway, without a big western power coming in and doing it for them by force?
        saturn8601 2y ago
        We just passed the 60 year anniversary of the Civil Rights Act. Since then we have seen enormous progress with humanity across the globe. Some have progressed faster than others and yes there has been some regression but if you zoom out, its a massive net improvement. The US has even been here before. After Lincoln was assassinated, he was replaced by a guy who many historians agree was the worst president in the history of the US, a man who arrived to his own inauguration drunk and someone who plunged the country into a shameful part of its history. Im not saying we aren't in for some serious tough times but I am feeling confident that in the long run it will swing back into the direction of progress. The US is currently in a period of immense transition to a new chapter. The upcoming generation (Gen Alpha) will be the first generation that is majority non white. What will the country be like when they come of political age? What values will it have? Given what I have seen so far from Gen Alpha (and Gen Z) Im feeling quite good that they will be positive values. >When was the last time an authoritarian system was toppled from within anyway, without a big western power coming in and doing it for them by force? Well you could argue the Soviet system was bound to fail due to the inherent hypocrisies it had. China is powerful enough that they cannot be easily influenced by the US but there is still massive trouble ahead for them. Their birth rate might stall their economic growth and that is the only thing really keeping the machine going there. I'm not saying they are guaranteed to collapse but it isn't looking good.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- frankharv 2y ago
  I have to wonder what the world would look like if USA did not go along with Chinas entry into the WTO. Why a communist state was afforded WTO status is puzzling. Look at the situation now. Slick Willie did that. Press release about how bad we fscked up: https://ustr.gov/about-us/policy-offices/press-office/press-releases/2024/february/ustr-releases-annual-report-chinas-wto-compliance https://ustr.gov/about-us/policy-offices/press-office/press-...
  - mattgrice 2y ago
    Let's be honest here, there was a long period of negotiation that spanned the Reagan - Clinton admins as well as approval from congress required. Everyone said it was a golden opportunity to open up a huge new market for US goods. I was doing a concentration in Chinese History in the late 90s and was flabbergasted at the very mainstream idea that this was going to be a win-win. I guess at the time they thought Russia was going to be a liberal democracy, too. I suspect a lot of powerful people knew that it would hurt US workers, US industrial strength, were neutral on the latter, positive on the former, and very positive about profits (during their lifetime).
    - James_K 2y ago
      The theory of comparative advantage is that both countries will benefit, and I think these people put a lot of stock in their own theories. As I understand it, what they wanted was a situation where high skill US workers focus on design and innovation, meanwhile China does the manufacturing for all of it. Not a bad setup really, if you ignore the fact that China probably wants to cut the US out of that equation.
    - roenxi 2y ago
      There probably were probably a bunch of people who'd internalised the message that capitalism favours the wealthy party and weren't expecting what actually happened. But nevertheless the history books will record the period as one of generosity, and a successful international strategy that is to be emulated. It is hard to look at a billion+ people rising out of poverty and call it anything but a win.
    - 2y ago
- londons_explore 2y ago
  I prefer bad competition to no competition. They still keep the good guys more honest than they'd be with no competition.
  - neuralRiot 2y ago
    Would you like a criminal union to keep police at bay?
notatoad 2y ago
> Whats your beef with BRICS? ... Yeah its a mess backed by some unsavory countries well, that?
throw0101d 2y ago
> Whats your beef with BRICS? There should be competition in the world against the US dollar. Well, there's the EUR and JPY, and to a certain extent the GBP. As for BRICS: > Pretty straightforward really. You combine Brazil's history of monetary stability, with Russia's respect for property rights, India's domestic tranquility, China's financial transparency, and South Africa's investment opportunities - and hey presto, you've got a new global money * https://twitter.com/davidfrum/status/1665053372402081792 https://twitter.com/davidfrum/status/1665053372402081792
- roenxi 2y ago
  When I think 'competition' I'd usually expect it to be from organisations that aren't hosting US military bases. The EU and Japan are in a poor position to resist the US when it insists on something stupid. > https://twitter.com/davidfrum/status/1665053372402081792 https://twitter.com/davidfrum/status/1665053372402081792 There is a lot of precedent for taking unreliable components and gluing them into a reliable system, the complaints he makes aren't strong ones. Also, the format reminds me of that famous joke [0] about all country stereotypes have strengths and weaknesses. [0] Heaven is where the police are British, the cooks are French, the mechanics German, the lovers Italian and it's all organised by the Swiss. Hell is where the chefs are British, the mechanics French, the lovers Swiss, the police German and it's all organised by the Italians.
- saturn8601 2y ago
  EUR and JPY each have their own issues. Again i've said this a ton of times now but I don't expect BRICS to succeed but its existence may help to start a shift or at least check the US in blunting some of its more severe actions.
- 6510 2y ago
  > Well, there's the EUR There was, until you blew up our gas pipe. It will take some time to clean up and fix the house. Next time we throw a party you are not invited. > to a certain extent the GBP. https://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/uk-manufacturing-share-gdp.jpg.webp https://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/uk-... :(
alephnerd 2y ago
The impact of BRICS is really overstated, and is only really discussed on Reddit and HN (because Reddit). In action it's been blunted because of China and India's rivalry, with each country vetoing expansion of nations that are fully lopsided one way or the other. It's not different from the SCO or APEC in that sense. If you want to learn further about blunting in IR I highly recommend reading Rush Doshi and Oriana Skylar Mastro's research. Alternatively, this classic scene from "Yes Minister" also pretty much explains this strategy - https://youtu.be/ZVYqB0uTKlE?feature=shared&t=107 https://youtu.be/ZVYqB0uTKlE?feature=shared&t=107
- saturn8601 2y ago
  Yeah I did mention that it is a mess. You don't even have a single entity that can be trusted by all partners. That itself makes it seem like a non starter but reminder: Just the threat of it existing is still something that can put pressure on the west and it may affect some sort of change against the west long term. The world would be even better off if there was some other democratic power that could provide balance by matching the US but thats not happening so this is what we have. Thinking long term, there has got to be some sort of mechanism for the non western world to move forward. Right now if you are on the losing side of the western backed global order, you have no hope. Thats a large chunk of the planet. They have a right to at least try to compete in every category including reserve currency.
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    The "west" vs "non-west" lens is not a valid lens to use and is very reductive. Use the regional/middle power lens instead. Every country wants their own strategic autonomy, and is jockeying to build their specific niche. Relations with the "West" are used as a way to further enhance their own regional autonomy or even graduate to great power status. Ik on Reddit you guys keep trying to talk about some sort of weird global strategy of a BRICS-West split but it's just utter and complete bullshit, as every member in BRICS, SCO, and other similar organizations are trying to blunt each other due to ambitions. A "West" versus "Non-west" lens just isn't the primary lens used by decisionmakers in non-Western countries.
sydbarrett74 2y ago
As far as Brazil, Bolsonaro is getting a second wind; as far as India, Modi is not exactly a fan of liberal democracy. Both nations exhibit disturbing signs of sliding into autocracy.
mensetmanusman 2y ago
This thread made me forget I was wondering about gallium nitride.

Etheryte 2y ago

While all of this is a heavy tangent to the actual article we're discussing, I'm not sure if Russia, China, Iran et al are exactly the kind of competition we should be fostering and cheering on.

griffzhowl 2y ago
The I stands for India, not Iran
- Etheryte 2y ago
  Iran is also a member of BRICS, there's more members than the abbreviation lets on. The current list is Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa, Egypt, Ethiopia and Iran.
  - griffzhowl 2y ago
    Ah, fair enough
  - 6510 2y ago
    You missed Ethiopia and the United Arab Emirates. There are 10 members and 26 applicants. Combined some ~57% of the world population and they have twice as much land as the EU and US combined. They also have terrifying amount of cheap labor and China is far ahead of the west in many kinds of manufacturing.
    - shiroiushi 2y ago
      It'd be really interesting to see some sci-fi set in the not-so-distance future (maybe 50-200 years ahead) predicting a future where the western-aligned democratic nations fall, and various brutal authoritarian regimes take over the world and variously compete or collaborate with each other. It wouldn't look pretty I think, but at least it'd probably be a realistic look at humanity's future. I'm guessing it would look something like "1984" but with more political powers and much better technology.
      - saturn8601 2y ago
        Lets hope that remains sci-fi. A better future is the rest of the non western world improving their living standards and eventually transitioning to some semblance of democracy.
        shiroiushi 2y ago
        At the moment, that possible future looks like total fantasy. Instead, it seems like many of the western democracies are going to turn into authoritarian governments, and meanwhile the non-western nations seem to be more than happy with their authoritarian leaders (or at least not unhappy enough to actually do anything about it). When was the last time an authoritarian system was toppled from within anyway, without a big western power coming in and doing it for them by force?
        saturn8601 2y ago
        We just passed the 60 year anniversary of the Civil Rights Act. Since then we have seen enormous progress with humanity across the globe. Some have progressed faster than others and yes there has been some regression but if you zoom out, its a massive net improvement. The US has even been here before. After Lincoln was assassinated, he was replaced by a guy who many historians agree was the worst president in the history of the US, a man who arrived to his own inauguration drunk and someone who plunged the country into a shameful part of its history. Im not saying we aren't in for some serious tough times but I am feeling confident that in the long run it will swing back into the direction of progress. The US is currently in a period of immense transition to a new chapter. The upcoming generation (Gen Alpha) will be the first generation that is majority non white. What will the country be like when they come of political age? What values will it have? Given what I have seen so far from Gen Alpha (and Gen Z) Im feeling quite good that they will be positive values. >When was the last time an authoritarian system was toppled from within anyway, without a big western power coming in and doing it for them by force? Well you could argue the Soviet system was bound to fail due to the inherent hypocrisies it had. China is powerful enough that they cannot be easily influenced by the US but there is still massive trouble ahead for them. Their birth rate might stall their economic growth and that is the only thing really keeping the machine going there. I'm not saying they are guaranteed to collapse but it isn't looking good.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
frankharv 2y ago
I have to wonder what the world would look like if USA did not go along with Chinas entry into the WTO. Why a communist state was afforded WTO status is puzzling. Look at the situation now. Slick Willie did that. Press release about how bad we fscked up: https://ustr.gov/about-us/policy-offices/press-office/press-releases/2024/february/ustr-releases-annual-report-chinas-wto-compliance https://ustr.gov/about-us/policy-offices/press-office/press-...
- mattgrice 2y ago
  Let's be honest here, there was a long period of negotiation that spanned the Reagan - Clinton admins as well as approval from congress required. Everyone said it was a golden opportunity to open up a huge new market for US goods. I was doing a concentration in Chinese History in the late 90s and was flabbergasted at the very mainstream idea that this was going to be a win-win. I guess at the time they thought Russia was going to be a liberal democracy, too. I suspect a lot of powerful people knew that it would hurt US workers, US industrial strength, were neutral on the latter, positive on the former, and very positive about profits (during their lifetime).
  - James_K 2y ago
    The theory of comparative advantage is that both countries will benefit, and I think these people put a lot of stock in their own theories. As I understand it, what they wanted was a situation where high skill US workers focus on design and innovation, meanwhile China does the manufacturing for all of it. Not a bad setup really, if you ignore the fact that China probably wants to cut the US out of that equation.
  - roenxi 2y ago
    There probably were probably a bunch of people who'd internalised the message that capitalism favours the wealthy party and weren't expecting what actually happened. But nevertheless the history books will record the period as one of generosity, and a successful international strategy that is to be emulated. It is hard to look at a billion+ people rising out of poverty and call it anything but a win.
  - 2y ago
londons_explore 2y ago
I prefer bad competition to no competition. They still keep the good guys more honest than they'd be with no competition.
- neuralRiot 2y ago
  Would you like a criminal union to keep police at bay?

notatoad 2y ago

> Whats your beef with BRICS? ... Yeah its a mess backed by some unsavory countries well, that?

throw0101d 2y ago

> Whats your beef with BRICS? There should be competition in the world against the US dollar. Well, there's the EUR and JPY, and to a certain extent the GBP. As for BRICS: > Pretty straightforward really. You combine Brazil's history of monetary stability, with Russia's respect for property rights, India's domestic tranquility, China's financial transparency, and South Africa's investment opportunities - and hey presto, you've got a new global money * https://twitter.com/davidfrum/status/1665053372402081792 https://twitter.com/davidfrum/status/1665053372402081792

roenxi 2y ago
When I think 'competition' I'd usually expect it to be from organisations that aren't hosting US military bases. The EU and Japan are in a poor position to resist the US when it insists on something stupid. > https://twitter.com/davidfrum/status/1665053372402081792 https://twitter.com/davidfrum/status/1665053372402081792 There is a lot of precedent for taking unreliable components and gluing them into a reliable system, the complaints he makes aren't strong ones. Also, the format reminds me of that famous joke [0] about all country stereotypes have strengths and weaknesses. [0] Heaven is where the police are British, the cooks are French, the mechanics German, the lovers Italian and it's all organised by the Swiss. Hell is where the chefs are British, the mechanics French, the lovers Swiss, the police German and it's all organised by the Italians.
saturn8601 2y ago
EUR and JPY each have their own issues. Again i've said this a ton of times now but I don't expect BRICS to succeed but its existence may help to start a shift or at least check the US in blunting some of its more severe actions.
6510 2y ago
> Well, there's the EUR There was, until you blew up our gas pipe. It will take some time to clean up and fix the house. Next time we throw a party you are not invited. > to a certain extent the GBP. https://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/uk-manufacturing-share-gdp.jpg.webp https://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/uk-... :(

alephnerd 2y ago

The impact of BRICS is really overstated, and is only really discussed on Reddit and HN (because Reddit). In action it's been blunted because of China and India's rivalry, with each country vetoing expansion of nations that are fully lopsided one way or the other. It's not different from the SCO or APEC in that sense. If you want to learn further about blunting in IR I highly recommend reading Rush Doshi and Oriana Skylar Mastro's research. Alternatively, this classic scene from "Yes Minister" also pretty much explains this strategy - https://youtu.be/ZVYqB0uTKlE?feature=shared&t=107 https://youtu.be/ZVYqB0uTKlE?feature=shared&t=107

saturn8601 2y ago
Yeah I did mention that it is a mess. You don't even have a single entity that can be trusted by all partners. That itself makes it seem like a non starter but reminder: Just the threat of it existing is still something that can put pressure on the west and it may affect some sort of change against the west long term. The world would be even better off if there was some other democratic power that could provide balance by matching the US but thats not happening so this is what we have. Thinking long term, there has got to be some sort of mechanism for the non western world to move forward. Right now if you are on the losing side of the western backed global order, you have no hope. Thats a large chunk of the planet. They have a right to at least try to compete in every category including reserve currency.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  The "west" vs "non-west" lens is not a valid lens to use and is very reductive. Use the regional/middle power lens instead. Every country wants their own strategic autonomy, and is jockeying to build their specific niche. Relations with the "West" are used as a way to further enhance their own regional autonomy or even graduate to great power status. Ik on Reddit you guys keep trying to talk about some sort of weird global strategy of a BRICS-West split but it's just utter and complete bullshit, as every member in BRICS, SCO, and other similar organizations are trying to blunt each other due to ambitions. A "West" versus "Non-west" lens just isn't the primary lens used by decisionmakers in non-Western countries.

sydbarrett74 2y ago

As far as Brazil, Bolsonaro is getting a second wind; as far as India, Modi is not exactly a fan of liberal democracy. Both nations exhibit disturbing signs of sliding into autocracy.

mensetmanusman 2y ago

This thread made me forget I was wondering about gallium nitride.