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Ok, I understand your point but let's be real for a minute and just acknowledge that the worse situation that you can get. I'd rather hear about how what is hap

Ok, I understand your point but let's be real for a minute and just acknowledge that the worse situation that you can get. I'd rather hear about how what is happening with young men today was happening with young women than men - not that that would be better but it would be less dangerous. Young men that are disenfranchised from their society and have little to live for are a primary metric political scientists use to measure the stability of country. Historically speaking, once a society gets too many men like that, the society ends. This isn't a battle of the sexes and women do not win bc of what has happened with men.

standardUser 2y ago
Historically speaking, we have never seen a society where women have more education, wealth and status than men. This is uncharted territory. Not that I don't fear the repercussions of having the bottom 50% of men desperate and disenfranchised. But those bottom 50% of men don't guarantee societal collapse because they're not then ones propping it up, women are. The question might be, what will women and higher status men do about the problems caused by the bottom half men?
- kwere 2y ago
  record amount of women are set to be single and childless past the fertility window, the most reasonable cause is a "lack of eligible bachelors"[0] in similar or better socioeconomic conditions. Record amounts of people will never reproduce creating a deep demographic imbalance, bankrupting most social programs. [0]https://www.medicaldaily.com/egg-freezing-rises-among-graduate-women-lack-eligible-bachelors-blame-not-419896 https://www.medicaldaily.com/egg-freezing-rises-among-gradua...
  - standardUser 2y ago
    Sure, and that's not ideal for women, but it's also not stopping their dramatic rise in education, wealth and status. As for bankrupting the social safety net, that's a real concern, but it's not unavoidable. We've already seen into the future in places like East Asia and Western Europe. We've got a ways to go in the US before our fertility rates match theirs, and they're still holding the line. Plus, it's a problem that America is uniquely prepared to handle as a nation of immigrants. Once the hardcore nativist movement has finishing blowing its wad.
- consteval 2y ago
  From my perspective as an outsider looking in (that meaning, I have no horse in heterosexual dynamics), the problem is we've had no progressive movements for men. At best, men have gotten whatever crumbs have fallen through the proverbial car seat crack of the vehicle of feminism. Largely there's only a few different ways to be a successful man. Even small deviations from the norm are met with ruler whips - and I don't just mean from other men. Modern women are incredibly cruel in the way they view non-conforming men. These limitations used to be superpowers. If you could perform an adequate display of masculinity, you were granted the world. This is no longer the case, which is a good thing. But the expectation still exists and is still enforced with an iron-fist, just without the riches. I mean, most heterosexual men I've met wouldn't even dare of so much as painting their nails. Let alone opening up their mind. How can we expect these people to follow along with the train of progressivism when none of it is for them? How can we expect them to leave gender roles behind when they know, and understand, there is only failure and heartache for them if they leave theirs's behind?
  - mplewis 2y ago
    Yeah, I feel so sorry for the men who lose their status when they leave behind patriarchy. Won't someone think of the poor men. :eyeroll:
    - consteval 2y ago
      You misunderstand. This is precisely the mindset that leave these men in a difficult position. They're forced to perform an adequate display of masculinity to please individuals such as yourself, because the moment they don't they get this sort of treatment. But performing such masculinity doesn't grant them what it used to before. So, one would think they would leave it behind! But they don't, because you don't welcome it. They have nowhere to go. Certainly, other men won't take them into their communities. And women won't either, because such men are weak and not worth their breath. So where do they end up if they choose that path? So naturally they don't choose that path. The problem here is that they can't "leave behind patriarchy". That translates into dying alone still. The reality is toxic masculinity is molded not just by men, but by women. Mothers, sisters, classmates. From the moment they leave the womb, boys understand there are strict rules they must conform to. Enforcing these rules, which you're unintentionally doing with this sort of "boohoo" mentality, is part of the reason we're in the mess. Meaning, you yourself are upholding patriarchy in ways you might not understand. Part of deconstructing toxic masculinity and giving men a fighting chance in a progressive world is being open to listening to them and giving them the space for vulnerability. You can't do that when you're hell-bent on never listening. When in such a position, men and young boys are set up for failure. They can't perform to a level that is deemed sufficient for progressivism, but they also can't perform for a level that is deemed sufficient for women and other men. Only a select few, who have mastered the art of perfectly performing outward masculinity while selectively dropping little kernels of progressivism, succeed. The solution is a modern progressive movement for men, but there's huge pushback to this idea. Even the notion men don't have to conform to even surface-level gender roles, like the clothes they wear, is met with huge uproar from men and women. I mean, just ask yourself: do you think the average progressive woman would even humor dating a heterosexual man who does drag? Do you think the average progressive woman would even humor dating a heterosexual man who splits the bill? The answer is a resounding no. Whatever little bits of progressivism men have gotten are pretty much just side-effects from feminism and gay liberation. But just side-effects. Men still can't act feminine, and they certainly can't do anything that might get them perceived as gay. I mean, I find another placeholder for fa*got online just about every month. Heterosexual men are sorely lacking in progressivist movements that help them and their self-identity.
- magospietato 2y ago
  Unfortunately women's successes are a side issue here. Disenfranchised men are in a chaotic state right now, but it's only going to take one decently charismatic leader to coerce them into a globally connected league of brownshirts.
  - standardUser 2y ago
    Shitty men have never had to contend with an alliance of empowered women and the ~30% of men who aren't susceptible to a cultish victim mentality.
  - mrguyorama 2y ago
    millions of 12 year old boys already see Andrew Tate as their god. Anyone who will give them easy and free access to sex.
- mensetmanusman 2y ago
  Societal collapse looks a lot more like the powerlines not being fixed then advertising dollars being inefficiently spent.
  - standardUser 2y ago
    Is the implication that we need big, strong men to do big, strong man work? Because that era already has one foot out the door.
    - DrPimienta 2y ago
      You have electricity because of men. You have running water because of men. You have sewage and plumbing because of men. You have internet because of men. It's not women smashing apart concrete and installing cables and pipes, it's men. Most women I know struggle to pour themselves a drink from a newly open gallon jug. You are a fool if you believe a team of women can go out in a hurricane and replace powerlines at anywhere near the same rate that a team of men can.
      - standardUser 2y ago
        Machines have already supplanted male strength in most of the ways it used to be indispensable. Do you see that trend reversing any time soon? Any serious observer can only see that trend accelerating, rapidly. And no one is calling for an end to men. Are you kidding me?? But pretending that men's size and strength is some irreplaceable virtue is laughable.
        DrPimienta 2y ago
        Machines designed and built by men, first of all. And secondly, there's no machine that actually installs the internet cable, or fixes the transformer, or installs your toilet. That's all done by hand, by men. It's not just size and strength either, there are very stark differences in visual-spatial reasoning, among other mental differences.
    - 2y ago
- DrPimienta 2y ago
  Women are not propping up society. The majority of your food was grown by men. The majority of your food was transported across the country by men. Your home (apartment) was built by men. The building you work in was built by men. Your water purification, your power generation, your internet infrastructure, all done by men. If the next generation of men feels that working these jobs will never afford them the ability to buy a house, start a family, and retire, then don't expect these jobs to be filled by women, because women are neither willing nor capable of doing them in the vast majority of instances.
  - standardUser 2y ago
    [flagged]
  - nozzlegear 2y ago
    > because women are neither willing nor capable of doing them in the vast majority of instances Preposterous. I see women in construction, utility and farm work all the time – and don't tell me that I'm just seeing the exceptions to your absurd rule all localized in my little slice of rural living where hospitals and clinics are desperate for any warm body to fill nursing positions. Women are more than capable of doing the jobs you're talking about.
    - genewitch 2y ago
      I live in a rural area, but i have lived in Los Angeles and Seattle, as well as in other rural areas on the west coast. There's not a single woman on any road crew, linesman crew, tree crew, ditch crew, runoff maintenance crew, and so on - out here. One time i saw a caltrans crew that both had a woman operator and a woman flagger, so i know there are exceptions! Yes, women probably can do the hours and days of work on all those crews. They just don't. Here's some more: Wrecking, oil drilling, fishing vessels (the large ones), mining, trash collection and the maintenance of the landfills. Commercial drivers licenses are 20:1 male to female. I personally was in an area with a high population of commercial truck drivers and every one of them had a story about the - read solitary - woman they met who was also a CDL. Again, women probably could do all of these things - they just don't. I know people like to cite harassment and the like as reasons; but having worked blue collar, you just get harassed. You either deal with it and do the job or you don't and don't. Anyhow, I just don't see the point of pointing out that a few women do some or all of these jobs. For the record, i'm for women being included in the SSS in the US.

standardUser 2y ago

Historically speaking, we have never seen a society where women have more education, wealth and status than men. This is uncharted territory. Not that I don't fear the repercussions of having the bottom 50% of men desperate and disenfranchised. But those bottom 50% of men don't guarantee societal collapse because they're not then ones propping it up, women are. The question might be, what will women and higher status men do about the problems caused by the bottom half men?

kwere 2y ago
record amount of women are set to be single and childless past the fertility window, the most reasonable cause is a "lack of eligible bachelors"[0] in similar or better socioeconomic conditions. Record amounts of people will never reproduce creating a deep demographic imbalance, bankrupting most social programs. [0]https://www.medicaldaily.com/egg-freezing-rises-among-graduate-women-lack-eligible-bachelors-blame-not-419896 https://www.medicaldaily.com/egg-freezing-rises-among-gradua...
- standardUser 2y ago
  Sure, and that's not ideal for women, but it's also not stopping their dramatic rise in education, wealth and status. As for bankrupting the social safety net, that's a real concern, but it's not unavoidable. We've already seen into the future in places like East Asia and Western Europe. We've got a ways to go in the US before our fertility rates match theirs, and they're still holding the line. Plus, it's a problem that America is uniquely prepared to handle as a nation of immigrants. Once the hardcore nativist movement has finishing blowing its wad.
consteval 2y ago
From my perspective as an outsider looking in (that meaning, I have no horse in heterosexual dynamics), the problem is we've had no progressive movements for men. At best, men have gotten whatever crumbs have fallen through the proverbial car seat crack of the vehicle of feminism. Largely there's only a few different ways to be a successful man. Even small deviations from the norm are met with ruler whips - and I don't just mean from other men. Modern women are incredibly cruel in the way they view non-conforming men. These limitations used to be superpowers. If you could perform an adequate display of masculinity, you were granted the world. This is no longer the case, which is a good thing. But the expectation still exists and is still enforced with an iron-fist, just without the riches. I mean, most heterosexual men I've met wouldn't even dare of so much as painting their nails. Let alone opening up their mind. How can we expect these people to follow along with the train of progressivism when none of it is for them? How can we expect them to leave gender roles behind when they know, and understand, there is only failure and heartache for them if they leave theirs's behind?
- mplewis 2y ago
  Yeah, I feel so sorry for the men who lose their status when they leave behind patriarchy. Won't someone think of the poor men. :eyeroll:
  - consteval 2y ago
    You misunderstand. This is precisely the mindset that leave these men in a difficult position. They're forced to perform an adequate display of masculinity to please individuals such as yourself, because the moment they don't they get this sort of treatment. But performing such masculinity doesn't grant them what it used to before. So, one would think they would leave it behind! But they don't, because you don't welcome it. They have nowhere to go. Certainly, other men won't take them into their communities. And women won't either, because such men are weak and not worth their breath. So where do they end up if they choose that path? So naturally they don't choose that path. The problem here is that they can't "leave behind patriarchy". That translates into dying alone still. The reality is toxic masculinity is molded not just by men, but by women. Mothers, sisters, classmates. From the moment they leave the womb, boys understand there are strict rules they must conform to. Enforcing these rules, which you're unintentionally doing with this sort of "boohoo" mentality, is part of the reason we're in the mess. Meaning, you yourself are upholding patriarchy in ways you might not understand. Part of deconstructing toxic masculinity and giving men a fighting chance in a progressive world is being open to listening to them and giving them the space for vulnerability. You can't do that when you're hell-bent on never listening. When in such a position, men and young boys are set up for failure. They can't perform to a level that is deemed sufficient for progressivism, but they also can't perform for a level that is deemed sufficient for women and other men. Only a select few, who have mastered the art of perfectly performing outward masculinity while selectively dropping little kernels of progressivism, succeed. The solution is a modern progressive movement for men, but there's huge pushback to this idea. Even the notion men don't have to conform to even surface-level gender roles, like the clothes they wear, is met with huge uproar from men and women. I mean, just ask yourself: do you think the average progressive woman would even humor dating a heterosexual man who does drag? Do you think the average progressive woman would even humor dating a heterosexual man who splits the bill? The answer is a resounding no. Whatever little bits of progressivism men have gotten are pretty much just side-effects from feminism and gay liberation. But just side-effects. Men still can't act feminine, and they certainly can't do anything that might get them perceived as gay. I mean, I find another placeholder for fa*got online just about every month. Heterosexual men are sorely lacking in progressivist movements that help them and their self-identity.
magospietato 2y ago
Unfortunately women's successes are a side issue here. Disenfranchised men are in a chaotic state right now, but it's only going to take one decently charismatic leader to coerce them into a globally connected league of brownshirts.
- standardUser 2y ago
  Shitty men have never had to contend with an alliance of empowered women and the ~30% of men who aren't susceptible to a cultish victim mentality.
- mrguyorama 2y ago
  millions of 12 year old boys already see Andrew Tate as their god. Anyone who will give them easy and free access to sex.
mensetmanusman 2y ago
Societal collapse looks a lot more like the powerlines not being fixed then advertising dollars being inefficiently spent.
- standardUser 2y ago
  Is the implication that we need big, strong men to do big, strong man work? Because that era already has one foot out the door.
  - DrPimienta 2y ago
    You have electricity because of men. You have running water because of men. You have sewage and plumbing because of men. You have internet because of men. It's not women smashing apart concrete and installing cables and pipes, it's men. Most women I know struggle to pour themselves a drink from a newly open gallon jug. You are a fool if you believe a team of women can go out in a hurricane and replace powerlines at anywhere near the same rate that a team of men can.
    - standardUser 2y ago
      Machines have already supplanted male strength in most of the ways it used to be indispensable. Do you see that trend reversing any time soon? Any serious observer can only see that trend accelerating, rapidly. And no one is calling for an end to men. Are you kidding me?? But pretending that men's size and strength is some irreplaceable virtue is laughable.
      - DrPimienta 2y ago
        Machines designed and built by men, first of all. And secondly, there's no machine that actually installs the internet cable, or fixes the transformer, or installs your toilet. That's all done by hand, by men. It's not just size and strength either, there are very stark differences in visual-spatial reasoning, among other mental differences.
  - 2y ago
DrPimienta 2y ago
Women are not propping up society. The majority of your food was grown by men. The majority of your food was transported across the country by men. Your home (apartment) was built by men. The building you work in was built by men. Your water purification, your power generation, your internet infrastructure, all done by men. If the next generation of men feels that working these jobs will never afford them the ability to buy a house, start a family, and retire, then don't expect these jobs to be filled by women, because women are neither willing nor capable of doing them in the vast majority of instances.
- standardUser 2y ago
  [flagged]
- nozzlegear 2y ago
  > because women are neither willing nor capable of doing them in the vast majority of instances Preposterous. I see women in construction, utility and farm work all the time – and don't tell me that I'm just seeing the exceptions to your absurd rule all localized in my little slice of rural living where hospitals and clinics are desperate for any warm body to fill nursing positions. Women are more than capable of doing the jobs you're talking about.
  - genewitch 2y ago
    I live in a rural area, but i have lived in Los Angeles and Seattle, as well as in other rural areas on the west coast. There's not a single woman on any road crew, linesman crew, tree crew, ditch crew, runoff maintenance crew, and so on - out here. One time i saw a caltrans crew that both had a woman operator and a woman flagger, so i know there are exceptions! Yes, women probably can do the hours and days of work on all those crews. They just don't. Here's some more: Wrecking, oil drilling, fishing vessels (the large ones), mining, trash collection and the maintenance of the landfills. Commercial drivers licenses are 20:1 male to female. I personally was in an area with a high population of commercial truck drivers and every one of them had a story about the - read solitary - woman they met who was also a CDL. Again, women probably could do all of these things - they just don't. I know people like to cite harassment and the like as reasons; but having worked blue collar, you just get harassed. You either deal with it and do the job or you don't and don't. Anyhow, I just don't see the point of pointing out that a few women do some or all of these jobs. For the record, i'm for women being included in the SSS in the US.